Thanks for your comment. Apologies for delayed reply.
Apologies is this sounds a bit snide but...invoking this ‘two paper rule’ is exactly the kind of faux-smart heuristic that EA’s critics have a problem with. It tries to take short-cuts to working out what is the best thing to do and even to justify them as themselves effective. But I think this mis-understands the holistic and historically extended nature of worldviews/movements/anlayses.
Social movement studies happens to exist as a self-identified field. That EA’s haven’t heard of it may say more about them than about the field. But it has a much longer and broader history in other disciplines and outside formal academia.
So, being slightly facetious, I would say that you should read Marx’s Capital, Vol 1. and, maybe, Lenin’s ‘Imperialism: the highest stage of capitalism’ - even if some of the theoretical and empirical details are wrong or outdated, the basic analyses retain a lot of force and are undoubtedly key texts in the relevant social movements.
Downvoted for not being at least two of true, necessary or kind. If you’re going to be snide, I think you should do a much better job of defending your claims rather than merely gesturing at a vague appeal to “holistic and historically extended nature.”
You’ve left zero pointers to the justifications for your beliefs that could be followed by a good-faith interlocutor in under ~20h of reading. Nor have you made an actual case for why a 20-hour investment is required for someone to even be qualified to dismiss the field (an incredible claim given the number of scholars who are willing to engage with arguments based on far less than 20 hours of background reading).
Your comment could be rewritten mutatis mutandis with “scientology” instead of “social movement studies,” with practically no change the argument structure. I think an argument for why a field is worth looking into should strive for more rigor and fewer vaguely insulting pot-shots.
(EDIT: ps, I’m not the downvoter on your other two responses. Wish they’d explained.)
I think the issue is maybe not really about doing any particular reading or research, but about worldviews.
One does not usually get ‘converted’ to socialism or whatever simply by reading a couple of smart articles on the issue. Nor would one necessarily be persuaded of the relevance of social movement studies specifically or anything else if one was constitutionally disinclined to think it worthwhile.
A worldview is not just something we rationally choose based on evidence. It is a complex function of upbringing, education, experience, moral commitments and who knows what other combination of emotional, unconscious or whatever factors. We
EAs seem disinclined to recognise that they do in fact have such a worldview and that it plays a big role in how they think about doing good. Givewell does have some important posts about its ‘worldview characteristics’ but seems to underplay the extent to which these views are controversial and thoroughly intertwined with its understanding of altruism.
With respect to social movement studies, I think the underlying worldview characteristic is the idea that the most significant social changes usually come about by way of more or less organised collective efforts, rather than isolated individual efforts. The field investigates how these organised efforts work.
But if you just don’t believe that social movements are the key drivers of change in human history, I don’t think there are any ‘2 papers’ that will persuade you!
This is true as far as it goes, but I think that many EAs, including me, would endorse the idea that “social movements are the [or at least a] key drivers of change in human history.” It seems perverse to assume otherwise on a forum whose entire point is to help the progress of a social movement that claims to e.g. help participants have 100x more positive impact in the world.
More generally, it’s true that your chance of convincing “constitutionally disinclined” people with two papers is low. But your chance is zero of convincing anyone with either (1) a bare assertion that there’s some good stuff there somewhere, or (2) the claim that they will understand you after spending 20 hours reading some very long books.
Also, I think your chance of convincing non-constitutionally-disinclined people with the right two papers is higher than you think. Although you’re correct that two papers directly arguing “you should use paradigm x instead of paradigm y” may not be super helpful, two pointers to “here are some interesting conclusions that you’ll come to if you apply paradigm x” can easily be enough to pique someone’s interest.
Thanks for your comment. Apologies for delayed reply.
Apologies is this sounds a bit snide but...invoking this ‘two paper rule’ is exactly the kind of faux-smart heuristic that EA’s critics have a problem with. It tries to take short-cuts to working out what is the best thing to do and even to justify them as themselves effective. But I think this mis-understands the holistic and historically extended nature of worldviews/movements/anlayses.
Social movement studies happens to exist as a self-identified field. That EA’s haven’t heard of it may say more about them than about the field. But it has a much longer and broader history in other disciplines and outside formal academia.
So, being slightly facetious, I would say that you should read Marx’s Capital, Vol 1. and, maybe, Lenin’s ‘Imperialism: the highest stage of capitalism’ - even if some of the theoretical and empirical details are wrong or outdated, the basic analyses retain a lot of force and are undoubtedly key texts in the relevant social movements.
Downvoted for not being at least two of true, necessary or kind. If you’re going to be snide, I think you should do a much better job of defending your claims rather than merely gesturing at a vague appeal to “holistic and historically extended nature.”
You’ve left zero pointers to the justifications for your beliefs that could be followed by a good-faith interlocutor in under ~20h of reading. Nor have you made an actual case for why a 20-hour investment is required for someone to even be qualified to dismiss the field (an incredible claim given the number of scholars who are willing to engage with arguments based on far less than 20 hours of background reading).
Your comment could be rewritten mutatis mutandis with “scientology” instead of “social movement studies,” with practically no change the argument structure. I think an argument for why a field is worth looking into should strive for more rigor and fewer vaguely insulting pot-shots.
(EDIT: ps, I’m not the downvoter on your other two responses. Wish they’d explained.)
I’m back for some reason!
Here’s my attempt at non-snide answer.
I think the issue is maybe not really about doing any particular reading or research, but about worldviews.
One does not usually get ‘converted’ to socialism or whatever simply by reading a couple of smart articles on the issue. Nor would one necessarily be persuaded of the relevance of social movement studies specifically or anything else if one was constitutionally disinclined to think it worthwhile.
A worldview is not just something we rationally choose based on evidence. It is a complex function of upbringing, education, experience, moral commitments and who knows what other combination of emotional, unconscious or whatever factors. We
EAs seem disinclined to recognise that they do in fact have such a worldview and that it plays a big role in how they think about doing good. Givewell does have some important posts about its ‘worldview characteristics’ but seems to underplay the extent to which these views are controversial and thoroughly intertwined with its understanding of altruism.
With respect to social movement studies, I think the underlying worldview characteristic is the idea that the most significant social changes usually come about by way of more or less organised collective efforts, rather than isolated individual efforts. The field investigates how these organised efforts work.
But if you just don’t believe that social movements are the key drivers of change in human history, I don’t think there are any ‘2 papers’ that will persuade you!
This is true as far as it goes, but I think that many EAs, including me, would endorse the idea that “social movements are the [or at least a] key drivers of change in human history.” It seems perverse to assume otherwise on a forum whose entire point is to help the progress of a social movement that claims to e.g. help participants have 100x more positive impact in the world.
More generally, it’s true that your chance of convincing “constitutionally disinclined” people with two papers is low. But your chance is zero of convincing anyone with either (1) a bare assertion that there’s some good stuff there somewhere, or (2) the claim that they will understand you after spending 20 hours reading some very long books.
Also, I think your chance of convincing non-constitutionally-disinclined people with the right two papers is higher than you think. Although you’re correct that two papers directly arguing “you should use paradigm x instead of paradigm y” may not be super helpful, two pointers to “here are some interesting conclusions that you’ll come to if you apply paradigm x” can easily be enough to pique someone’s interest.