Yes, but I donât see any reason to assume that the uncertainty skews in favour of humans dying rather than humans surviving.
Some reasons which push towards saving lives being more harmful nearterm:
The supply per capita of meat excluding aquatic animals, and shrimp are roughly proportional to the logarithm of real GDP per capita, and real GDP per capita has been increasing.
I guess I am underestimating the harms to animals due to using RPâs median welfare ranges, which were calculated assuming a probability of 0 of animals having capacities which are unknown to be present or not. In reality, the probability will be higher than 0, which implies larger welfare ranges, especially for less studied animals like shrimp.
I think in an area of high uncertainty we should default to the idea that humans should survive (and maybe change their dietary preferences) and not to the idea that they should die
I think the focus should be on pursuing robustly good actions, in particular, improving animal welfare, and learning more.
Particularly not when the assumptions you used to reach this conclusion were that that poor Indians receiving nutrition supplementation have access to the same ~11 farmed shrimp per year in their diet as rich Indians
Random Indians, not rich Indians. I would appreciate it if you could represent my post fairly.
I donât think the evidence points to the median GiveWell beneficiary consuming any of the ~13 farmed aquatic animals per year youâve attributed to them
I explicitly said in the post âThe harms would be smaller for a random person helped by such GiveWellâs grants or Ambitious Impactâs organisationsâ, and then argued why it is unclear this changes my conclusions.
Random Indians, not rich Indians. I would appreciate it if you could represent my post fairly.
âRandom Indiansâ is a group which includes poor Indians (i.e. recipients of anti-poverty measures, which have non-random targeting) and rich Indians (typically not recipients of GiveWell or AIM charitable interventions). The assumption you make by using a mean consumption figure is that poor Indians and rich Indians alike consume ~11 shrimp per year. Thatâs what the text you quoted said, and a perfectly fair representation of your post
I actually think itâs an unfair representation of my post to accuse me of misrepresenting you simply because I spelled out the logical implications of your choice of figure, especially when I have also presented multiple reasons why I believe zero would be more representative of the amount they were likely to consume, and even more representative of the marginal impact of a typical GiveWell/âAIM recipient surviving on Indian aquaculture production.
I explicitly said in the post âThe harms would be smaller for a random person helped by such GiveWellâs grants or Ambitious Impactâs organisationsâ, and then argued why it is unclear this changes my conclusions.
My argument is that the median survivor due to GiveWell/âAIM aid causes zero harm via aquaculture, and even the small minority of survivors who do consume shrimp are unlikely to have any impact upon numbers of shrimp culled in factory farms. Iâm aware your post above argues that meat consumption may be linearly related to welfare via the common factor that is GDP, but I donât think the relatively small diminution in self-reported welfare from lower incomes youâve considered here is anywhere near enough to doubt that the survival of Indians without access to aquaculture products might be net positive in the welfarist framework you presented!
I feel weâre going in circles here, so Iâll wish you a happy Christmas and am unlikely to continue the discussion.
Some reasons which push towards saving lives being more harmful nearterm:
The supply per capita of meat excluding aquatic animals, and shrimp are roughly proportional to the logarithm of real GDP per capita, and real GDP per capita has been increasing.
I guess I am underestimating the harms to animals due to using RPâs median welfare ranges, which were calculated assuming a probability of 0 of animals having capacities which are unknown to be present or not. In reality, the probability will be higher than 0, which implies larger welfare ranges, especially for less studied animals like shrimp.
I think the focus should be on pursuing robustly good actions, in particular, improving animal welfare, and learning more.
Random Indians, not rich Indians. I would appreciate it if you could represent my post fairly.
I explicitly said in the post âThe harms would be smaller for a random person helped by such GiveWellâs grants or Ambitious Impactâs organisationsâ, and then argued why it is unclear this changes my conclusions.
âRandom Indiansâ is a group which includes poor Indians (i.e. recipients of anti-poverty measures, which have non-random targeting) and rich Indians (typically not recipients of GiveWell or AIM charitable interventions). The assumption you make by using a mean consumption figure is that poor Indians and rich Indians alike consume ~11 shrimp per year. Thatâs what the text you quoted said, and a perfectly fair representation of your post
I actually think itâs an unfair representation of my post to accuse me of misrepresenting you simply because I spelled out the logical implications of your choice of figure, especially when I have also presented multiple reasons why I believe zero would be more representative of the amount they were likely to consume, and even more representative of the marginal impact of a typical GiveWell/âAIM recipient surviving on Indian aquaculture production.
My argument is that the median survivor due to GiveWell/âAIM aid causes zero harm via aquaculture, and even the small minority of survivors who do consume shrimp are unlikely to have any impact upon numbers of shrimp culled in factory farms. Iâm aware your post above argues that meat consumption may be linearly related to welfare via the common factor that is GDP, but I donât think the relatively small diminution in self-reported welfare from lower incomes youâve considered here is anywhere near enough to doubt that the survival of Indians without access to aquaculture products might be net positive in the welfarist framework you presented!
I feel weâre going in circles here, so Iâll wish you a happy Christmas and am unlikely to continue the discussion.