The authors of Making Discussions Inclusive theorise that alienating discussions are the reason why women were less likely than men to return to meetings of EA London, despite being equally likely to attend in the first place. We note that such a conclusion would depend on an exceptionally high quantity of alienating discussions, and is prima facie incompatible with the generally high rating for welcomingness reported in the EA survey. We note that there are several possible other theories… The claim is not that any of these theories are necessarily correct, just that it would be premature to assume that the main cause of the gender gap is the kinds of alienating conversations discussed in Making Discussions Inclusive.
EA London recently published a 2018 Impact Report with a whole appendix on diversity issues, which discusses this issue directly and strongly suggests alienating conversations/behavior are a very real issue. Key excerpts (emphasis added):
I’ve included an appendix on our Holiday/EA Unconference to capture some of the negative feedback we received. To my memory, this is the event we received the worst feedback on and the feedback is often related to diversity and inclusion, which seems like the most prominent theme in the negative feedback we both received and sought throughout the year.
From 31⁄8 to 3⁄9, EA London held a Holiday/EA Unconference at the EA Hotel for 26 guests (plus 3 organisers). Some guests had also attended one/both of the retreats we held at the hotel in the previous week (Life Review Weekend and Careers Week).
Guests were asked to complete a feedback form on the final evening which included the question “Was there anything that made you feel uncomfortable or unwelcome during the event? (no need to write an answer if no)”. Of the 17 people who completed the form, 6 answered this question, and the 4 answers that mention gender follow:
· “On the Friday evening as people began to arrive I felt that as the members of the group changed, the vibe changed and I felt that it was too ‘male Oxbridge graduate’ (which I seem to find harder to connect with).”
· “It was quite a lot more male than the careers week, which was very noticeable and led to different topics to be discussed. I felt having a more diverse EA crowdin the careers week was more welcoming and relaxed (even as a corduroy wearing straight white man!) and it would be worth considering how to attract diverse representation.” (Compare to this person’s response to the question “Anything else you want to say?” on the last day of Careers Week: “I think this was one of the most diverse EA events I have been to in terms of having a lot of people with different backgrounds, ideologies (and more women!). I enjoyed this and it made the event feel welcoming.”)
· “Yes, I believe that insufficient time was taken on the code of conduct, and in a situation where someone made a somewhat sexist comment I wasn’t really sure what to do, because I don’t think we discussed what was/wasn’t acceptable conversation and what to do in a situation where someone felt uncomfortable.”
· “We might’ve needed peaceful and open icebreakers (shy people in mind!!) or a welcome session with some notes on mental health and inclusiveness to create a more welcoming atmosphere. Many arrived without doing proper hellos, and the first night people cliqued up without much mingling, and this was very different from the previous 2 retreats. Also, some women and queer men felt excluded by the way that the suddenly majority-male crowd naturally behaved (pushed aside, talked over, not said hello to etc.)”
This narrative is also consistent with the EA Survey data on welcomingness, which found women rated EA as less welcoming than men to a statistically significant degree. (The high rating for welcomingness across the whole EA Survey seems much less relevant, as those results will by definition largely reflect the beliefs of demographics with the highest representation.)
A few other notes:
· I’d guess the vast majority of behavior that’s perceived as unwelcoming wasn’t intended as unwelcoming.
· I doubt women are the only instance where an underrepresented EA demographic feels unwelcome. For example, I have a strong prior that conservatives wouldn’t feel very welcome interacting with the EA community (center left + left outnumbers center right + right by ~17x) and that this is problematic.
· Tip of the hat to EA London for writing up their experiences so others can learn from them. I wish the next group running an EA retreat had access to a consolidated resource with synthesized lessons from other groups’ experience, and practical examples of how (not) to promote an inclusive, truth-seeking culture; to the best of my knowledge this doesn’t exist.
· I wholeheartedly agree with @Aidan O’Gara’s call to operationalize discussions of this nature as much as possible. Simply distinguishing between “issues that are relevant to EA” and “good issues to discuss at an intro to EA event” would go a long way toward helping people not talk past each other.
The way I’m reading these excerpts, only one refers to an alienating conversation of the sort discussed in Making Discussions Inclusive (the one about the “somewhat sexist” comment). The other three seem like complaints about the “vibe”, which feels like a separate issue. (Not saying there’s nothing to do, just that Making Discussions Inclusive doesn’t obviously offer suggestions.) Indeed, there could even be a tradeoff: Reading posts like Making Discussions Inclusive makes me less inclined to talk to women and queer men, because I think to myself “it’d be very easy for me to accidentally say something that would upset them… probably best to avoid opening my mouth at all, so I don’t screw things up for the entire EA movement.”
The comment about how the gender imbalance “led to different topics to be discussed” might (or might not) reflect alienating conversations, but I agree with your general point that the survey quotes are more about the “vibe”. I think the quotes suggest that simple things like running icebreakers and saying hi to people (whether or not they are women and/or queer) can be really valuable.
The parent post already responded to a number of these points but let me give a detailed reply.
First, the evidence you cite doesn’t actually contradict the point being made. Just because women rate EA as somewhat less welcoming doesn’t mean that this is the reason they return at a lower rate. Indeed, the alternate hypothesis that says it’s the same reason women are less likely to be attracted to EA in the first place seems quite plausible.
As far as the quotes we can ignore the people simply agreeing that something should be done to increase diversity and talk about the specific reactions. I’ll defer the one about reporting a sexist remark till the end and focus on the complaints about the environment. These don’t seem to be complaints suggesting any particular animus or bad treatment of women or other underprivileged groups merely people expressing a distaste for the kind of interactions they associate with largely male groups. However, other people do like that kind of interaction so, like the question of what to serve for dinner or whether alcohol should be served, you can’t please everyone. While it’s true that in our society there is a correlation between male gender and a preference for a combative, interrupting challenging style of interaction there are plenty of women who also prefer this interaction style (and in my own experience at academic conferences gay men are just as likely as straight men to behave this way). Indeed, the argument that it’s anti-woman to interact in a way that involves interrupting etc.. when some women do prefer this style is the very kind of harmful gender essentialism that we should be fighting against.
Of course, I think everyone agrees that we should do what we can to make EA more welcoming *when that doesn’t impose a greater cost than benefit.* Ideally, there would be parts of EA that appeal to people who like every kind of interaction style but there are costs in terms of community cohesion, resources etc.. etc..
The parent was arguing, persuasively imo, that imposing many of the suggested reforms would impose substantial costs elsewhere not that it might not improve diversity or offer benefits to some people. I don’t see you making a persuasive case that the costs cited aren’t very real or that the benefits outweigh them.
This finally brings us to the complaint about where to report a sexist comment. While I think no one disagrees that we should condemn sexist comments creating an official reporting structure with disciplinary powers is just begging to get caught up in the moderators dilema and create strife and argument inside the community. Better to leave that to informal mechanisms.
I definitely prefer being in gender-balanced settings to being the only woman in a group of men, so I agree that’s a preference. You seem to be suggesting that if it’s a preference, it’s not the cause of our homogeneity, but I think the preference to be near similar people is a good explanation for why EA isn’t very diverse. (cf Thomas Schelling’s work on informal segregation)
No I didn’t mean to suggest that. But I did mean to suggest that it’s not at all obvious that this kind of Schelling style amplification of preferences is something that would be good to do something about. The archetypal example of Schelling style clustering is a net utility win even if a small one.
So in the archetypal Schelling example, everyone would prefer to be at a table with both races, but strongly prefer to NOT be the only one of their race at their table, which led to complete racial segregation which no one was especially keen on...
I thought the archetypal example was where everyone had a mild preference to be with other members of their race (even if just because of somewhat more shared culture) and didn’t personally really care if they weren’t in a mixed group. But I take your point to be that, at least in the gender case, we do have the preference not to be entirely divided by gender.
So yes, I agree that if the effect leads to too much sorting then it could be bad but it seems like a tough empirical question whether we are at a point where the utility gains from more sorting are more or less than the losses.
I intentionally avoided commenting on the OP’s broader claims as I’m squarely in the “Nobody’s going to solve the question of social justice here” camp (per @Aidan O’Gara). I only meant to comment on the narrow issue of EA London’s gender-related attendance dynamics, to try and defuse speculation by pointing people to relevant data that’s available. In retrospect, I probably should have just commented on the thread about women being less likely to return to EA London meetups instead of this one, but here we are.
I think the quotes from the surveys offer important insights, and that it’d be bizarre to try to understand how EA London’s events are perceived without them. I didn’t claim they offer a definitive explanation (just one that’s more informed than pure intuition), and I certainly didn’t argue we should start restricting discussions on lots of important topics.
Actually, one of my biggest takeaways from the survey quotes is that there’s low-hanging fruit available, opportunities to make EA more inclusive and better at seeking truth at the same time. The cost/benefit profile of (for example) an icebreaker at a retreat is extremely attractive. It makes people feel more welcome, it builds the sort of trust that makes it easier to have conversations on controversial topics, and it makes those conversations better by inviting a broader range of perspectives. Even if you hate icebreakers (like I do), based on the survey data they seem like a really good idea for EA retreats and similar events.
I apparently wasn’t clear enough that I absolutely agree and support things like icebreakers etc. But we shouldn’t either expect them to or judge their effectiveness based on how much it increases female representation. Absolutely do it and do it for everyone who will benefit but just don’t be surprised if even if we do that everywhere it doesn’t do much to affect gender balance in EA.
I think if we just do it because it makes ppl more comfortable without the gender overlay not only will it be more effective and more widely adopted but avoid the very real risk of creep (we are doing this to draw in more women but we haven’t seen a change so we need to adopt more extreme approaches). Let’s leave gender out of it when we can and in this case we absolutely can because being welcoming helps lots of ppl regardless of gender.
EA London recently published a 2018 Impact Report with a whole appendix on diversity issues, which discusses this issue directly and strongly suggests alienating conversations/behavior are a very real issue. Key excerpts (emphasis added):
This narrative is also consistent with the EA Survey data on welcomingness, which found women rated EA as less welcoming than men to a statistically significant degree. (The high rating for welcomingness across the whole EA Survey seems much less relevant, as those results will by definition largely reflect the beliefs of demographics with the highest representation.)
A few other notes:
· I’d guess the vast majority of behavior that’s perceived as unwelcoming wasn’t intended as unwelcoming.
· I doubt women are the only instance where an underrepresented EA demographic feels unwelcome. For example, I have a strong prior that conservatives wouldn’t feel very welcome interacting with the EA community (center left + left outnumbers center right + right by ~17x) and that this is problematic.
· Tip of the hat to EA London for writing up their experiences so others can learn from them. I wish the next group running an EA retreat had access to a consolidated resource with synthesized lessons from other groups’ experience, and practical examples of how (not) to promote an inclusive, truth-seeking culture; to the best of my knowledge this doesn’t exist.
· I wholeheartedly agree with @Aidan O’Gara’s call to operationalize discussions of this nature as much as possible. Simply distinguishing between “issues that are relevant to EA” and “good issues to discuss at an intro to EA event” would go a long way toward helping people not talk past each other.
Thanks for the info.
The way I’m reading these excerpts, only one refers to an alienating conversation of the sort discussed in Making Discussions Inclusive (the one about the “somewhat sexist” comment).
The other three seem like complaints about the “vibe”, which feels like a separate issue. (Not saying there’s nothing to do, just that Making Discussions Inclusive doesn’t obviously offer suggestions.) Indeed, there could even be a tradeoff: Reading posts like Making Discussions Inclusive makes me less inclined to talk to women and queer men, because I think to myself “it’d be very easy for me to accidentally say something that would upset them… probably best to avoid opening my mouth at all, so I don’t screw things up for the entire EA movement.”
The comment about how the gender imbalance “led to different topics to be discussed” might (or might not) reflect alienating conversations, but I agree with your general point that the survey quotes are more about the “vibe”. I think the quotes suggest that simple things like running icebreakers and saying hi to people (whether or not they are women and/or queer) can be really valuable.
Appreciate the data!
The parent post already responded to a number of these points but let me give a detailed reply.
First, the evidence you cite doesn’t actually contradict the point being made. Just because women rate EA as somewhat less welcoming doesn’t mean that this is the reason they return at a lower rate. Indeed, the alternate hypothesis that says it’s the same reason women are less likely to be attracted to EA in the first place seems quite plausible.
As far as the quotes we can ignore the people simply agreeing that something should be done to increase diversity and talk about the specific reactions. I’ll defer the one about reporting a sexist remark till the end and focus on the complaints about the environment. These don’t seem to be complaints suggesting any particular animus or bad treatment of women or other underprivileged groups merely people expressing a distaste for the kind of interactions they associate with largely male groups. However, other people do like that kind of interaction so, like the question of what to serve for dinner or whether alcohol should be served, you can’t please everyone. While it’s true that in our society there is a correlation between male gender and a preference for a combative, interrupting challenging style of interaction there are plenty of women who also prefer this interaction style (and in my own experience at academic conferences gay men are just as likely as straight men to behave this way). Indeed, the argument that it’s anti-woman to interact in a way that involves interrupting etc.. when some women do prefer this style is the very kind of harmful gender essentialism that we should be fighting against.
Of course, I think everyone agrees that we should do what we can to make EA more welcoming *when that doesn’t impose a greater cost than benefit.* Ideally, there would be parts of EA that appeal to people who like every kind of interaction style but there are costs in terms of community cohesion, resources etc.. etc..
The parent was arguing, persuasively imo, that imposing many of the suggested reforms would impose substantial costs elsewhere not that it might not improve diversity or offer benefits to some people. I don’t see you making a persuasive case that the costs cited aren’t very real or that the benefits outweigh them.
This finally brings us to the complaint about where to report a sexist comment. While I think no one disagrees that we should condemn sexist comments creating an official reporting structure with disciplinary powers is just begging to get caught up in the moderators dilema and create strife and argument inside the community. Better to leave that to informal mechanisms.
I definitely prefer being in gender-balanced settings to being the only woman in a group of men, so I agree that’s a preference. You seem to be suggesting that if it’s a preference, it’s not the cause of our homogeneity, but I think the preference to be near similar people is a good explanation for why EA isn’t very diverse. (cf Thomas Schelling’s work on informal segregation)
No I didn’t mean to suggest that. But I did mean to suggest that it’s not at all obvious that this kind of Schelling style amplification of preferences is something that would be good to do something about. The archetypal example of Schelling style clustering is a net utility win even if a small one.
So in the archetypal Schelling example, everyone would prefer to be at a table with both races, but strongly prefer to NOT be the only one of their race at their table, which led to complete racial segregation which no one was especially keen on...
I thought the archetypal example was where everyone had a mild preference to be with other members of their race (even if just because of somewhat more shared culture) and didn’t personally really care if they weren’t in a mixed group. But I take your point to be that, at least in the gender case, we do have the preference not to be entirely divided by gender.
So yes, I agree that if the effect leads to too much sorting then it could be bad but it seems like a tough empirical question whether we are at a point where the utility gains from more sorting are more or less than the losses.
I intentionally avoided commenting on the OP’s broader claims as I’m squarely in the “Nobody’s going to solve the question of social justice here” camp (per @Aidan O’Gara). I only meant to comment on the narrow issue of EA London’s gender-related attendance dynamics, to try and defuse speculation by pointing people to relevant data that’s available. In retrospect, I probably should have just commented on the thread about women being less likely to return to EA London meetups instead of this one, but here we are.
I think the quotes from the surveys offer important insights, and that it’d be bizarre to try to understand how EA London’s events are perceived without them. I didn’t claim they offer a definitive explanation (just one that’s more informed than pure intuition), and I certainly didn’t argue we should start restricting discussions on lots of important topics.
Actually, one of my biggest takeaways from the survey quotes is that there’s low-hanging fruit available, opportunities to make EA more inclusive and better at seeking truth at the same time. The cost/benefit profile of (for example) an icebreaker at a retreat is extremely attractive. It makes people feel more welcome, it builds the sort of trust that makes it easier to have conversations on controversial topics, and it makes those conversations better by inviting a broader range of perspectives. Even if you hate icebreakers (like I do), based on the survey data they seem like a really good idea for EA retreats and similar events.
I apparently wasn’t clear enough that I absolutely agree and support things like icebreakers etc. But we shouldn’t either expect them to or judge their effectiveness based on how much it increases female representation. Absolutely do it and do it for everyone who will benefit but just don’t be surprised if even if we do that everywhere it doesn’t do much to affect gender balance in EA.
I think if we just do it because it makes ppl more comfortable without the gender overlay not only will it be more effective and more widely adopted but avoid the very real risk of creep (we are doing this to draw in more women but we haven’t seen a change so we need to adopt more extreme approaches). Let’s leave gender out of it when we can and in this case we absolutely can because being welcoming helps lots of ppl regardless of gender.