Publicly admitting you’re incorrect is disincentivized. Probably if someone finds your counterpoint persuasive, they will not say so, in order to save face. In any case, onlookers seem more important—there are far more of them.
Mostly, I’ve contacted authors via email. I never get responses. This doesn’t really surprise me, since they don’t know who I am, stand to gain nothing by replying, and they might worry I’d use any reply they gave me to disparage them in public. Point being, though, that it’s really not easy to foster dialog with a person who’s already taken the step of disparaging you, your ideas, or your community in public.
I’m not referring to the difficulty of grasping it so much as the amount of time that was put in. Also, framing effects are important. Maybe Sabine just skimmed the paper to verify that the claims made in the media were correct. Maybe she doesn’t have much experience with moral philosophy discourse norms. (“You would kill baby Hitler? Stop advocating for infanticide!!”)
I’m not sure what you think her agenda is. If she was focused on advancing an agenda, such as attempting a “hit job”, would it make sense to include the bit at the end about how she really appreciates the longtermist focus on the prevention of existential risks so we have a long-term strategy for the next 10 billion years? My guess is she is not deliberately pushing an agenda, so much as fitting longtermism into an existing worldview without trying to steelman it (or, adopting a frame from a someone else who did this).
Let’s taboo “hit job,” since it’s adding heat rather than light at least in this discussion between us. I do think that it makes sense to acknowledge the common-sense (actual longtermist) viewpoint at the end in the context of making a political attack on longtermism. Hossenfelder knows that her audience is sympathetic to the view that we should care for the long-term future. That makes it difficult to just outright dismiss longtermism the way mainstream political ideologies dismiss each other.
So she has to present an insane type of what we might call “no chips” longtermism, then argue against that, with the little caveat at the end. This is going to be just one of many examples to code longtermism as some sort of whacko right-wing hypernatalist escape from the burning wreckage of Earth to Mars for the rich 0.1% fantasy.
Having watched the video, I just frankly find it hard to believe that anybody would watch it and not see it as a clear politically motivated attack/smear attempt on longtermism.
It’s not so much a sense that you’re seeing the young woman and I’m seeing the old lady.
This isn’t meant to be disparaging, but it’s more a sense that I’m seeing the rabbit, while you’re simultaneously claiming you’re not colorblind but do not see the rabbit.
I’m truly confused both about how you can watch Hossenfelder’s video and not see it as a politically motivated attack, and also about how you imagine, in practical terms, that longtermism could have avoided becoming a target for such attacks.
I’m truly confused both about how you can watch Hossenfelder’s video and not see it as a politically motivated attack
Supposing it is a politically motivated attack, what do you think her motivation was? Why would she craftily seek to discredit longtermism in the way you describe? I think that’s the biggest missing piece for me.
(I also think it’s dangerous to mistake criticism for deliberate persecution.)
how you imagine, in practical terms, that longtermism could have avoided becoming a target for such attacks.
One of the most common ways to argue in moral philosophy is to make use of intuition pumps. For example: “Do you believe fighting global warming should be a top priority, even if it means less growth in developing countries and therefore more suffering in the near term? If so, how would you justify that?”
Can you say more about how you see intuition pumps as a potential way for longtermism to avoid political attacks? Seems to me we use them all the time.
I think EA and longtermism are both coming under attack now because they are a currently visible/trendy competitor in the moral marketplace of ideas. I don’t have a great explanation for why people do this, but it’s a traditional human hobby. It just seems like a typical case of attacking a perceived outgroup, either because they seem like a legitimate threat to one’s own influence or because you think your followers will enjoy the roast.
Can you say more about how you see intuition pumps as a potential way for longtermism to avoid political attacks? Seems to me we use them all the time.
The thought is to tailor the intuition pump for your audience, e.g. if your audience is left-wing, leverage moral intuitions they already have.
The thought is to tailor the intuition pump for your audience
I would expect this would make the problem worse, because these attacks come from people looking for stuff to quote, and if you are saying different things to different people they can quote the stuff you said in one context to people in another.
I guess I’m not sure when the point is that you transition from writing straightforward academic articles to writing politically-targeted articles. Hossenfelder said she skipped reading the more recent work (i.e. MacAskill’s “Doing Good Better”) in favor of looking at old papers published before longtermism/EA was in the news. So unless weird little nascent philosophical movements are couching their arguments in language appealing to every possible future political critic years before those critics will deign to even read the paper, it doesn’t seem like this strategy could have prevented Hossenfelder’s criticism.
Mostly, I’ve contacted authors via email. I never get responses. This doesn’t really surprise me, since they don’t know who I am, stand to gain nothing by replying, and they might worry I’d use any reply they gave me to disparage them in public. Point being, though, that it’s really not easy to foster dialog with a person who’s already taken the step of disparaging you, your ideas, or your community in public.
Let’s taboo “hit job,” since it’s adding heat rather than light at least in this discussion between us. I do think that it makes sense to acknowledge the common-sense (actual longtermist) viewpoint at the end in the context of making a political attack on longtermism. Hossenfelder knows that her audience is sympathetic to the view that we should care for the long-term future. That makes it difficult to just outright dismiss longtermism the way mainstream political ideologies dismiss each other.
So she has to present an insane type of what we might call “no chips” longtermism, then argue against that, with the little caveat at the end. This is going to be just one of many examples to code longtermism as some sort of whacko right-wing hypernatalist escape from the burning wreckage of Earth to Mars for the rich 0.1% fantasy.
Having watched the video, I just frankly find it hard to believe that anybody would watch it and not see it as a clear politically motivated attack/smear attempt on longtermism.
It’s not so much a sense that you’re seeing the young woman and I’m seeing the old lady.
This isn’t meant to be disparaging, but it’s more a sense that I’m seeing the rabbit, while you’re simultaneously claiming you’re not colorblind but do not see the rabbit.
I’m truly confused both about how you can watch Hossenfelder’s video and not see it as a politically motivated attack, and also about how you imagine, in practical terms, that longtermism could have avoided becoming a target for such attacks.
Supposing it is a politically motivated attack, what do you think her motivation was? Why would she craftily seek to discredit longtermism in the way you describe? I think that’s the biggest missing piece for me.
(I also think it’s dangerous to mistake criticism for deliberate persecution.)
One of the most common ways to argue in moral philosophy is to make use of intuition pumps. For example: “Do you believe fighting global warming should be a top priority, even if it means less growth in developing countries and therefore more suffering in the near term? If so, how would you justify that?”
Can you say more about how you see intuition pumps as a potential way for longtermism to avoid political attacks? Seems to me we use them all the time.
I think EA and longtermism are both coming under attack now because they are a currently visible/trendy competitor in the moral marketplace of ideas. I don’t have a great explanation for why people do this, but it’s a traditional human hobby. It just seems like a typical case of attacking a perceived outgroup, either because they seem like a legitimate threat to one’s own influence or because you think your followers will enjoy the roast.
The thought is to tailor the intuition pump for your audience, e.g. if your audience is left-wing, leverage moral intuitions they already have.
I would expect this would make the problem worse, because these attacks come from people looking for stuff to quote, and if you are saying different things to different people they can quote the stuff you said in one context to people in another.
I guess I’m not sure when the point is that you transition from writing straightforward academic articles to writing politically-targeted articles. Hossenfelder said she skipped reading the more recent work (i.e. MacAskill’s “Doing Good Better”) in favor of looking at old papers published before longtermism/EA was in the news. So unless weird little nascent philosophical movements are couching their arguments in language appealing to every possible future political critic years before those critics will deign to even read the paper, it doesn’t seem like this strategy could have prevented Hossenfelder’s criticism.