I’m not sure if this perspective is helpful but this issue reminds me of a somewhat analogous situation in the Financial Independence Retire Early (FIRE) movement. Originally the focus was on drastically limiting spending, increasing the savings rate to as high as possible, and retiring shockingly young. Then, as time passed some people realized they didn’t want to live in such austerity. Other people found that they could move things along faster by focusing on earning more, instead of spending less. Then there were people who didn’t really want to retire but more like get enough income to be comfortable and then downshift their lifestyles. There were folks who just focused on making as much money as possible and remained in the community even though they were just about getting rich. Then some people sort of stumbled into the movement having made a ton of money on cryptocurrency or Tesla options or whatever...they never really applied any of the principles but still retired early.
With all these changes in the demographics and mindsets of the community I’ve noticed that the subjects discussed and the behavior encouraged has notably changed over the years. It does not look much like what I saw 15 years ago.
Part of the change I’ve seen is that people with different flavors in mind self-select to associate with others that are similar. /r/leanfire separates from /r/fatfire etc. I’m guessing that drift and fragmentation like this are very likely for any group/movement that gets big enough. I don’t know if it is a good or bad thing.
I think what you’re describing is drift due to size (well in this case of FIRE, it actually might be drift due to experiences/values/maturity but let’s say due to size). The FIRE movement is “wide”. Maybe more appropriately, a subreddit like r/antiwork or r/superstonk is “wide”.
These “wide” movements have a lot of people. They often have momentum and can coordinate. But it’s unclear what resources and actions they can take, beyond buying stock or something. Also, as you point out, they have the tendency to drift or break apart.
But EA can do something else, which is getting “tall”. $50B of funding is just the beginning and this money is the least interesting resource EA has. EA can accumulate other things of great value. I think it’s hard to write out exactly what these resources are (because it’s hard to know in advance or because I’m dumb) but they are probably related to institutions and talent. One example would be a powerful applied math group that solves ELK.
One implication is that this “tallness” requires and justifies a strong, virtuous Leviathan “Center” that shepherds and adds to these resources.
One role of the “Center” is to prevent systemic misuse, which doesn’t look like stealing, but people being inside EA at some point, then leaving, taking away resources and not giving back (with the caveat that the departed resources could be used impactfully). The “Center” also needs to deal with other systemic issues, like entrenchment of individual/entities or uncollegial subcommunities.
These resources also create dynamics that both prevent or increase drift/dilution. For example, these valuable EA resources aren’t just money, they are sticky to EA. So a robust trend is people being attracted by them and trying to learn EA values. This is good, but one issue is that you need to figure out this flow and integrate new leaders and people successfully.
Another important dynamic might be the constant upgrading of talent. Ideally, EA talent should get better and better. Or at least be more experienced and have greater faculty. This creates a tension between existing cultures/groups and the flow of talent.
Each of these dynamics puts pressure on and implies different roles for the “Center”. For example, upgrading of talent means there’s pressure for the “Center” to focus on virtue and governance and fostering people, instead of object level work, or even strategy to some degree.
But the point of this story is that purposeless drift and dilution aren’t inevitable, and in fact are controllable by a good Center. The point of this control is the “tallness” or resources to execute effective altruism.
I’m not sure if this perspective is helpful but this issue reminds me of a somewhat analogous situation in the Financial Independence Retire Early (FIRE) movement. Originally the focus was on drastically limiting spending, increasing the savings rate to as high as possible, and retiring shockingly young. Then, as time passed some people realized they didn’t want to live in such austerity. Other people found that they could move things along faster by focusing on earning more, instead of spending less. Then there were people who didn’t really want to retire but more like get enough income to be comfortable and then downshift their lifestyles. There were folks who just focused on making as much money as possible and remained in the community even though they were just about getting rich. Then some people sort of stumbled into the movement having made a ton of money on cryptocurrency or Tesla options or whatever...they never really applied any of the principles but still retired early.
With all these changes in the demographics and mindsets of the community I’ve noticed that the subjects discussed and the behavior encouraged has notably changed over the years. It does not look much like what I saw 15 years ago.
Part of the change I’ve seen is that people with different flavors in mind self-select to associate with others that are similar. /r/leanfire separates from /r/fatfire etc. I’m guessing that drift and fragmentation like this are very likely for any group/movement that gets big enough. I don’t know if it is a good or bad thing.
I think what you’re describing is drift due to size (well in this case of FIRE, it actually might be drift due to experiences/values/maturity but let’s say due to size). The FIRE movement is “wide”. Maybe more appropriately, a subreddit like r/antiwork or r/superstonk is “wide”.
These “wide” movements have a lot of people. They often have momentum and can coordinate. But it’s unclear what resources and actions they can take, beyond buying stock or something. Also, as you point out, they have the tendency to drift or break apart.
But EA can do something else, which is getting “tall”. $50B of funding is just the beginning and this money is the least interesting resource EA has. EA can accumulate other things of great value. I think it’s hard to write out exactly what these resources are (because it’s hard to know in advance or because I’m dumb) but they are probably related to institutions and talent. One example would be a powerful applied math group that solves ELK.
One implication is that this “tallness” requires and justifies a strong, virtuous
Leviathan“Center” that shepherds and adds to these resources.One role of the “Center” is to prevent systemic misuse, which doesn’t look like stealing, but people being inside EA at some point, then leaving, taking away resources and not giving back (with the caveat that the departed resources could be used impactfully). The “Center” also needs to deal with other systemic issues, like entrenchment of individual/entities or uncollegial subcommunities.
These resources also create dynamics that both prevent or increase drift/dilution. For example, these valuable EA resources aren’t just money, they are sticky to EA. So a robust trend is people being attracted by them and trying to learn EA values. This is good, but one issue is that you need to figure out this flow and integrate new leaders and people successfully.
Another important dynamic might be the constant upgrading of talent. Ideally, EA talent should get better and better. Or at least be more experienced and have greater faculty. This creates a tension between existing cultures/groups and the flow of talent.
Each of these dynamics puts pressure on and implies different roles for the “Center”. For example, upgrading of talent means there’s pressure for the “Center” to focus on virtue and governance and fostering people, instead of object level work, or even strategy to some degree.
But the point of this story is that purposeless drift and dilution aren’t inevitable, and in fact are controllable by a good Center. The point of this control is the “tallness” or resources to execute effective altruism.