In my comment, however, I am not accusing the medical establishment (X2) of intentional or uncontroversially bad acts (Y).
No one is accusing your dad of bad acts if his Facebook is cloned, AFAICT.
I do accept that there is a difference between a taxpayer-funded profession and a personal/religious/cultural role, but that seems to be the only difference—they really do seem like very similar arguments and I’m a bit surprised to be called uncharitable for bringing it up.
In addition to the what AllAmericanBreakfast said, the issue with “all Muslims are complicit in terrorism unless they loudly and publicly condemn terrorism” is that
a. not all terrorism is committed by Muslims.
b. The shared notion between a) Islamic terrorist and b) normal guy who happens to be Muslim is that they share a belief in the “the will of God”, and they have deferring notions about what the will of God tells them to do.
c. In contrast, (at least in AllAmericanBreakfast’s telling)”the establishment” specifically appeals to the bioethics illusion in their choice to be conservative and allowing people to die by omission. The appropriate comparison might instead be a Muslim imam [1]whose teachings were specifically cited by terrorists as a justification for terror and who chose not to condemn terror (or alternatively, blaming God himself, assuming God is real).
I think this is reasonable. I think it’s also reasonable to assign partial blame to Karl Marx (and contemporary Marxist scholars and firebrands) for the failures of the Soviet Union, and it’s reasonable to assign a small amount of blame to Nietzsche and Kant (as well as contemporary scholars who did not disavow such actions) for the harms of Nazi Germany. Or closer to home, if animal rights terrorism are conducted in the name of Peter Singer, it’s reasonable to assign partial blame to Singer for his speech acts, and especially if he does not disavow such terrorism.
Though that comparison is not exact either, since the illusion is not propagated by individual bioethicists so much as the field overall. So perhaps it’s closer to whether Muslim imams overall have a duty to disavow terror, and I think this is also reasonable (I’d say the same thing about contemporary Marxist scholars re: Stalin and Nietzsche scholars re: Hitler).
I’m a bit surprised to be called uncharitable for bringing it up.
In particular, the religious example you gave has political associations I am eager to avoid. Implying such associations can be used as a rhetorical tactic. Furthermore, you read an extreme statements into my comment that simply is not there:
it’s pretty unfair to say that all professional researchers of bioethics need to suddenly pivot into PR
These things together caused me to read your comment not as a rebuttal, but as a low blow, combining outgroup signaling and weak-man tactics. This is why I called your comment uncharitable. I am explaining this to you because you said you were surprised at this reaction, which indicates to me that you may be unaware of these associations and may not have been reading me very closely.
No one is accusing your dad of bad acts if his Facebook is cloned, AFAICT.
Holding your dad responsible for anyone who gets scammed would be equivalent to accusing him of negligence—a bad omission rather than a bad act, but it is in fact a discussion of omissions that we are focused on here.
that seems to be the only difference—they really do seem like very similar arguments
Given that you didn’t notice this important difference the first time you examined my argument, are you sure you want to trust your impressions of how things “seem” to you the second time around? This is not, after all, the only difference I outlined—the other being that we are dealing with coordination and communication problems rather than intentionally destructive or criminal actions.
Of course, it’s also important to note that it’s not just the number of distinct differences between the argument I’m making and the words you’re putting into my mouth, but the magnitude of each individual difference. A single important difference is enough to robustly distinguish the ethical argument I’m making from the one you’re worrying about.
No one is accusing your dad of bad acts if his Facebook is cloned, AFAICT.
I do accept that there is a difference between a taxpayer-funded profession and a personal/religious/cultural role, but that seems to be the only difference—they really do seem like very similar arguments and I’m a bit surprised to be called uncharitable for bringing it up.
In addition to the what AllAmericanBreakfast said, the issue with “all Muslims are complicit in terrorism unless they loudly and publicly condemn terrorism” is that
a. not all terrorism is committed by Muslims.
b. The shared notion between a) Islamic terrorist and b) normal guy who happens to be Muslim is that they share a belief in the “the will of God”, and they have deferring notions about what the will of God tells them to do.
c. In contrast, (at least in AllAmericanBreakfast’s telling)”the establishment” specifically appeals to the bioethics illusion in their choice to be conservative and allowing people to die by omission. The appropriate comparison might instead be a Muslim imam [1]whose teachings were specifically cited by terrorists as a justification for terror and who chose not to condemn terror (or alternatively, blaming God himself, assuming God is real).
I think this is reasonable. I think it’s also reasonable to assign partial blame to Karl Marx (and contemporary Marxist scholars and firebrands) for the failures of the Soviet Union, and it’s reasonable to assign a small amount of blame to Nietzsche and Kant (as well as contemporary scholars who did not disavow such actions) for the harms of Nazi Germany. Or closer to home, if animal rights terrorism are conducted in the name of Peter Singer, it’s reasonable to assign partial blame to Singer for his speech acts, and especially if he does not disavow such terrorism.
Though that comparison is not exact either, since the illusion is not propagated by individual bioethicists so much as the field overall. So perhaps it’s closer to whether Muslim imams overall have a duty to disavow terror, and I think this is also reasonable (I’d say the same thing about contemporary Marxist scholars re: Stalin and Nietzsche scholars re: Hitler).
In particular, the religious example you gave has political associations I am eager to avoid. Implying such associations can be used as a rhetorical tactic. Furthermore, you read an extreme statements into my comment that simply is not there:
These things together caused me to read your comment not as a rebuttal, but as a low blow, combining outgroup signaling and weak-man tactics. This is why I called your comment uncharitable. I am explaining this to you because you said you were surprised at this reaction, which indicates to me that you may be unaware of these associations and may not have been reading me very closely.
Holding your dad responsible for anyone who gets scammed would be equivalent to accusing him of negligence—a bad omission rather than a bad act, but it is in fact a discussion of omissions that we are focused on here.
Given that you didn’t notice this important difference the first time you examined my argument, are you sure you want to trust your impressions of how things “seem” to you the second time around? This is not, after all, the only difference I outlined—the other being that we are dealing with coordination and communication problems rather than intentionally destructive or criminal actions.
Of course, it’s also important to note that it’s not just the number of distinct differences between the argument I’m making and the words you’re putting into my mouth, but the magnitude of each individual difference. A single important difference is enough to robustly distinguish the ethical argument I’m making from the one you’re worrying about.