Disclaimer: I’m not very familiar with either QRI’s research or neuroscience, but in the spirit of Cunningham’s Law:
QRI’s research seems to predicated on the idea that moral realism and hedonistic utilitarianism are true. I’m very skeptical about both of these, and I think QRI’s time would be better spent working on the question of whether these starting assumptions are true in the first place.
I’d say there’s at least some diversity of views on these topics within QRI. When I introduced STV in PQ, I very intentionally did not frame it as a moral hypothesis. If we’re doing research, best to keep the descriptive and the normative as separate as possible. If STV is true it may make certain normative frames easier to formulate, but STV itself is not a theory of morality or ethics.
One way to put this is that when I wear my philosopher’s hat, I’m most concerned about understanding what the ‘natural kinds’ (in Plato’s terms) of qualia are. If valence is a natural kind (similar to how a photon or electromagnetism are natural kinds), that’s important knowledge about the structure of reality. My sense is that ‘understanding what reality’s natural kinds are’ is prior to ethics: first figure out what is real, and then everything else (such as ethics and metaethics) becomes easier.
In terms of specific ethical frames, we do count among QRI some deeply committed hedonistic utilitarians. I see deep value in that frame although I would categorize myself as closer to a virtue ethicist.
Thanks for the response. I guess I find the idea that there is such a thing as a platonic form of qualia or valence highly dubious.
A simple thought experiment: for any formal description of “negative valence,” you could build an agent that acts to maximize this “negative valence” form and still acts exactly like a human maximizing happiness when looking from the outside (something like a “philosophical masochist”). It seems to me that it’s impossible to define positive and negative valence independently from the environment the agent is embedded in.
Hi Samuel, I think it’s a good thought experiment. One prediction I’ve made is that one could make an agent such as that, but it would be deeply computationally suboptimal: it would be a system that maximizes disharmony/dissonance internally, but seeks out consonant patterns externally. Possible to make but definitely an AI-complete problem.
Just as an idle question, what do you suppose the natural kinds of phenomenology are? I think this can be a generative place to think about qualia in general.
I disagree that QRI’s comparative advantage, such as it is, is figuring out the correctness of moral realism or hedonistic utilitarianism. “Your philosophers were so preoccupied with whether or not they should, they didn’t even stop to think if they could.”
You’re right. The questions of moral realism and hedonistic utilitarianism do make me skeptical about QRI’s research (as I currently understand it), but doing research starting from uncertain premises definitely can be worthwhile.
Disclaimer: I’m not very familiar with either QRI’s research or neuroscience, but in the spirit of Cunningham’s Law:
QRI’s research seems to predicated on the idea that moral realism and hedonistic utilitarianism are true. I’m very skeptical about both of these, and I think QRI’s time would be better spent working on the question of whether these starting assumptions are true in the first place.
Hi Samuel,
I’d say there’s at least some diversity of views on these topics within QRI. When I introduced STV in PQ, I very intentionally did not frame it as a moral hypothesis. If we’re doing research, best to keep the descriptive and the normative as separate as possible. If STV is true it may make certain normative frames easier to formulate, but STV itself is not a theory of morality or ethics.
One way to put this is that when I wear my philosopher’s hat, I’m most concerned about understanding what the ‘natural kinds’ (in Plato’s terms) of qualia are. If valence is a natural kind (similar to how a photon or electromagnetism are natural kinds), that’s important knowledge about the structure of reality. My sense is that ‘understanding what reality’s natural kinds are’ is prior to ethics: first figure out what is real, and then everything else (such as ethics and metaethics) becomes easier.
In terms of specific ethical frames, we do count among QRI some deeply committed hedonistic utilitarians. I see deep value in that frame although I would categorize myself as closer to a virtue ethicist.
Thanks for the response. I guess I find the idea that there is such a thing as a platonic form of qualia or valence highly dubious.
A simple thought experiment: for any formal description of “negative valence,” you could build an agent that acts to maximize this “negative valence” form and still acts exactly like a human maximizing happiness when looking from the outside (something like a “philosophical masochist”). It seems to me that it’s impossible to define positive and negative valence independently from the environment the agent is embedded in.
Hi Samuel, I think it’s a good thought experiment. One prediction I’ve made is that one could make an agent such as that, but it would be deeply computationally suboptimal: it would be a system that maximizes disharmony/dissonance internally, but seeks out consonant patterns externally. Possible to make but definitely an AI-complete problem.
Just as an idle question, what do you suppose the natural kinds of phenomenology are? I think this can be a generative place to think about qualia in general.
I disagree that QRI’s comparative advantage, such as it is, is figuring out the correctness of moral realism or hedonistic utilitarianism. “Your philosophers were so preoccupied with whether or not they should, they didn’t even stop to think if they could.”
You’re right. The questions of moral realism and hedonistic utilitarianism do make me skeptical about QRI’s research (as I currently understand it), but doing research starting from uncertain premises definitely can be worthwhile.