I’ve also been thinking a lot about longtermism and its implication for fertility. dotsam has taken longtermism’s pro-natalist bent in a relatively happy direction, but it also has some very dark implications. Doesn’t longermism imply a forced birth be a great outcome (think of those millions of future generations created!)? Doesn’t it imply conservatives are right and abortion is an horrendous crime? There are real moral problems with valuing a potential life with the same amount of weight as as an actual life.
I’m really surprised by how common it is for people’s thoughts to turn in this direction! (cf. this recent twitter thread) A few points I’d stress in reply:
(1) Pro-natalism just means being pro-fertility in general; it doesn’t mean requiring reproduction every single moment, or no matter the costs.
(2) Assuming standard liberal views about the (zero) moral status of the non-conscious embryo, there’s nothing special about abortion from a pro-natalist perspective. It’s just like any other form of family planning—any other moment when you refrain from having a child but could have done otherwise.
(3) Violating people’s bodily autonomy is a big deal; even granting that it’s good to have more kids all else equal, it’s hard to imagine a realistic scenario in which “forced birth” would be for the best, all things considered. (For example, it’s obviously better for people to time their reproductive choices to better fit with when they’re in a position to provide well for their kids. Not to mention the Freakonomics stuff about how unwanted pregnancies, if forced to term, result in higher crime rates in subsequent decades.)
In general, we should just be really, really wary about sliding from “X is good, all else equal” to “Force everyone to do X, no matter what!” Remember your J.S. Mill, everyone! Utilitarians should be liberal.
Only if you’re strictly total utilitarian. But won’t all these things drop us into a situation like in the repugnant conclusion, where we would just get more people (especially women) living in worse conditions, with fewer choices?
Women in fact already are having fewer children than they want. Me and a lot of women around me would want to have children earlier than we are planning on, but we couldn’t do it without dropping three levels down the socioeconomic ladder and having to give up on goals we’ve been investing in since elementary school. We won’t only be quashing our potential but that of the children we would raise once we do have the resources to invest in them. Is that really a better future?
If EA really wants to increase fertility at a global level I think some hard thought needs to be given to how to change the social structures and incentives so that women can have children without having to also disproportionately carry such a large burden through pregnancy, birth, and childcare.
I actually have given artificial wombs a little thought. I do think they’d be great: they could eliminate a very common suffering, give more options to LGBTQ people, aid in civilizational resilience, and definitely increase the number of wanted children people have in practice. They make sense within many different ethical frameworks.
I also think we’re very, very far from them. I’m a systems biologist in a lab that also ventures into reproductive health, and we ostensibly know very little about the process of pregnancy. My lab is using the most cutting-edge methods to prove very specific and fundamental things. So at the same time, I am skeptical we will see it in our lifetimes, if ever.
I’ve also been thinking a lot about longtermism and its implication for fertility. dotsam has taken longtermism’s pro-natalist bent in a relatively happy direction, but it also has some very dark implications. Doesn’t longermism imply a forced birth be a great outcome (think of those millions of future generations created!)? Doesn’t it imply conservatives are right and abortion is an horrendous crime? There are real moral problems with valuing a potential life with the same amount of weight as as an actual life.
I’m really surprised by how common it is for people’s thoughts to turn in this direction! (cf. this recent twitter thread) A few points I’d stress in reply:
(1) Pro-natalism just means being pro-fertility in general; it doesn’t mean requiring reproduction every single moment, or no matter the costs.
(2) Assuming standard liberal views about the (zero) moral status of the non-conscious embryo, there’s nothing special about abortion from a pro-natalist perspective. It’s just like any other form of family planning—any other moment when you refrain from having a child but could have done otherwise.
(3) Violating people’s bodily autonomy is a big deal; even granting that it’s good to have more kids all else equal, it’s hard to imagine a realistic scenario in which “forced birth” would be for the best, all things considered. (For example, it’s obviously better for people to time their reproductive choices to better fit with when they’re in a position to provide well for their kids. Not to mention the Freakonomics stuff about how unwanted pregnancies, if forced to term, result in higher crime rates in subsequent decades.)
In general, we should just be really, really wary about sliding from “X is good, all else equal” to “Force everyone to do X, no matter what!” Remember your J.S. Mill, everyone! Utilitarians should be liberal.
Only if you’re strictly total utilitarian. But won’t all these things drop us into a situation like in the repugnant conclusion, where we would just get more people (especially women) living in worse conditions, with fewer choices?
Women in fact already are having fewer children than they want. Me and a lot of women around me would want to have children earlier than we are planning on, but we couldn’t do it without dropping three levels down the socioeconomic ladder and having to give up on goals we’ve been investing in since elementary school. We won’t only be quashing our potential but that of the children we would raise once we do have the resources to invest in them. Is that really a better future?
If EA really wants to increase fertility at a global level I think some hard thought needs to be given to how to change the social structures and incentives so that women can have children without having to also disproportionately carry such a large burden through pregnancy, birth, and childcare.
This probably isn’t the sort of thing you’re thinking of, but I’m really hoping we can figure out artificial wombs for this reason
I actually have given artificial wombs a little thought. I do think they’d be great: they could eliminate a very common suffering, give more options to LGBTQ people, aid in civilizational resilience, and definitely increase the number of wanted children people have in practice. They make sense within many different ethical frameworks.
I also think we’re very, very far from them. I’m a systems biologist in a lab that also ventures into reproductive health, and we ostensibly know very little about the process of pregnancy. My lab is using the most cutting-edge methods to prove very specific and fundamental things. So at the same time, I am skeptical we will see it in our lifetimes, if ever.