I think all those points are correct, but I view them more as expanding nuances rather than direct counterarguments. That is, one can re-construct a version of my thesis that remains agreeable—it would just be restricted to the domain of advocacy (which I did intend but failed to state) and would admit nuanced ways in which such points can be “earned” in addition to being spent.
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So far, the most valuable contributors to ideas relating to effective altruism are people like Martin Rees, Jaan Tallin, James Martin, Elon Musk.
I think of the use case of this essay as the typical EA person trying to hold conversations with their friends about EA / rationalist / etc. topics. Presumably, this typical EA person does care to be an advocate, at least in part—that is, all else being equal, this person would prefer their friends to adopt their EA / rationalist / etc. ideas.
For us typical EA people, we’re restrained by having a more constrained budget of points in a way that Rees, Tallin, etc. don’t because they’re already famous and have proven themselves for having immense accomplishments that are already verifiable and can then—cue halo effect—be openly weird and have people think “hmm, maybe they’re right”.
So I think the case where one wants to advocate comes up pretty often, and the advice here applies to that for non-famous people.
Hey Peter. I think it’s good to point out a main agreement that we have. I agree that changing the way you dress and look can be a low-cost and useful way to improve your ability to do advocacy. The area where I think you’re missing the mark is with regard to changing your beliefs in order to advocate. If in the process of making your ideas more palatable to others, you lose track of what’s true, then your advocacy might end up unhelpful or harmful.
I think you’re missing the point about why I mentioned VIPs. It was to argue that being direct and honestly truth-seeking might be a better way of attracting people who have a larger than average capacity to influence the world. I was arguing that attracting people who have a larger than average capacity to influence the world is likely to be more useful than trying to influence your friends. I’m not clear which, if either of these, you disagree with. I wasn’t trying to say that we should be weird in order to copy VIPs, because I agree that they’re in a different situation.
For most people, looking good when they introduce their friends to effective altruism is not a neglected problem. Lots of effective altruists, like any other people, can improve their social skills and tact, but it’s rare for people not to be thinking about social approval at all. Arguably, excessive conformity of opinion is one of the world’s big problems—for instance, people can collectively numb themselves to big problems in the world like poverty and existential risk.
I think all those points are correct, but I view them more as expanding nuances rather than direct counterarguments. That is, one can re-construct a version of my thesis that remains agreeable—it would just be restricted to the domain of advocacy (which I did intend but failed to state) and would admit nuanced ways in which such points can be “earned” in addition to being spent.
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I think of the use case of this essay as the typical EA person trying to hold conversations with their friends about EA / rationalist / etc. topics. Presumably, this typical EA person does care to be an advocate, at least in part—that is, all else being equal, this person would prefer their friends to adopt their EA / rationalist / etc. ideas.
For us typical EA people, we’re restrained by having a more constrained budget of points in a way that Rees, Tallin, etc. don’t because they’re already famous and have proven themselves for having immense accomplishments that are already verifiable and can then—cue halo effect—be openly weird and have people think “hmm, maybe they’re right”.
So I think the case where one wants to advocate comes up pretty often, and the advice here applies to that for non-famous people.
Hey Peter. I think it’s good to point out a main agreement that we have. I agree that changing the way you dress and look can be a low-cost and useful way to improve your ability to do advocacy. The area where I think you’re missing the mark is with regard to changing your beliefs in order to advocate. If in the process of making your ideas more palatable to others, you lose track of what’s true, then your advocacy might end up unhelpful or harmful.
I think you’re missing the point about why I mentioned VIPs. It was to argue that being direct and honestly truth-seeking might be a better way of attracting people who have a larger than average capacity to influence the world. I was arguing that attracting people who have a larger than average capacity to influence the world is likely to be more useful than trying to influence your friends. I’m not clear which, if either of these, you disagree with. I wasn’t trying to say that we should be weird in order to copy VIPs, because I agree that they’re in a different situation.
For most people, looking good when they introduce their friends to effective altruism is not a neglected problem. Lots of effective altruists, like any other people, can improve their social skills and tact, but it’s rare for people not to be thinking about social approval at all. Arguably, excessive conformity of opinion is one of the world’s big problems—for instance, people can collectively numb themselves to big problems in the world like poverty and existential risk.
I could duplicate arguments for wariness of social biases, but instead it seems better to just link Eliezer, who’s been pretty lucid on this topic: Asch’s Conformity Experiment, On Expressing Your Concerns.