I’m concerned about EA falling into the standard “risk-averse bureaucracy” failure mode. Every time something visibly bad happens, the bureaucracy puts a bunch of safeguards in place. Over time the drag created by the safeguards does a lot of harm, but because the harm isn’t as visible, the bureaucracy doesn’t work as effectively to reduce it.
I would like to see Fermi estimates for some of these, including explicit estimates of less-visible downsides. For example, consider EA co-living, including for co-workers. If this was banned universally, my guess is that it would mean EAs paying many thousands of dollars extra in rent for housing and/or office space per month. It would probably lead to reduced motivation, increased loneliness, and wasted commute time among EAs. EA funding would become more scarce, likely triggering Goodharting for EAs who want to obtain funding, or people dying senselessly in the developing world.
A ban on co-living doesn’t seem very cost-effective to me. It seems to me that expanding initiatives like Basefund would achieve something similar, but be far more cost-effective.
I consider power-dynamics safeguards that make sure, for example, that anyone can quit their job and still have a place to stay—to be deontological. You won’t change my mind easily using a cost-benefit analysis, if the argument will be something like “for the greater good, it’s ok to make it very hard for some people to quit, because it will save EA money that can be used to save more lives”.
This is similar to how it would be hard to convince me that stealing is a good idea—even if we can use the money to buy bed nets.
I can elaborate if you don’t agree. (or maybe you totally agree and then there’s no need)
Also, I wouldn’t make one group out of all the “risk-averse bureaucracy”. Preventing the abuse of power dynamics is a specific instance that should get special treatment imo
There are millions of people around the world who live paycheck to paycheck, and run the risk of becoming homeless if they quit their jobs. We don’t have the resources to help all of those people, and I’m not immediately seeing how deontology helps us figure out how to allocate our limited resources between this and various other obligations we may have. [Edit: maybe this section was obtuse on my part—see Yonatan’s reply below.]
I think it is really valuable for people in EA to feel comfortable pushing back against their boss. (I see strong consequentialist arguments for this. Those arguments are why I will focus on people in EA, rather than non-EAs living paycheck to paycheck, for the rest of this comment.) I think there are ways to achieve this cost-effectively. For example:
When possible, have employee housing arrangements made directly with a landlord or similar person, rather than routing through someone they have a working relationship with.
Agree in advance that any employee who lives for free in employer-provided housing gets to continue living there for, say, 3 months if they quit/get fired.
Build things like Basefund to the point where no EA thinks it is very hard to quit their job. (For example, a hypothetical Basefund+ could guarantee that EA employees who quit/get fired always receive a generous severance package. This idea might seem costly at first, but because the money is going to an EA instead of a landlord, it is much more likely to e.g. be donated to an effective charity.)
Encourage EAs to live with non-EAs when all else is equal.
When I wrote about deontology, I didn’t mean “we must help all people who are stuck in their jobs”. I meant “we must not hire people who will be stuck in their job while arguing that it’s ok to do so for the greater good”
I agree that we should be wary of falling into the “risk-averse bureaucracy” failure mode, and I also think co-living for co-workers at a similar seniority level is fine (it is also normal outside EA). I also think there might be a good case for EA houses trying to have people from different orgs.
However, I’d like to point out that any Fermi estimates here would be fairly pointless. There are many different inputs you would need, and the reasonable range for each input is very wide, particularly with “potential reputational harm to EA from bad thing happening”, which can range from nothing to FTX-level or far worse.
If it’s pointless to do a Fermi estimate, that sounds a lot like saying it’s pointless to try and figure out whether a ban is a good idea?
If that’s the case, I favor letting people decide for themselves—individuals understand their particular context, and can make a guess that’s customized for their particular situation.
For example, consider EA co-living, including for co-workers. If this was banned universally, my guess is that it would mean EAs paying many thousands of dollars extra in rent for housing and/or office space per month. It would probably lead to reduced motivation, increased loneliness, and wasted commute time among EAs
I’m not for a blanket ban (and I doubt the OP is either), but this analysis seems like it only really applies to places like the bay area with ridiculously high rent and housing shortages.
I mean, I live in a place considered to have very high rent, and not being able to live with my co-workers wouldn’t affect me in the slightest, I can bike to work, I houseshare with non-coworkers. Loneliness in a house share situation depends entirely on whether your housemates are good, and there is no guarantee that your co-workers are good housemates just because they are EA.
I wonder if there has been discussion about moving EA orgs towards cities with less housing problems in general?
Loneliness in a house share situation depends entirely on whether your housemates are good, and there is no guarantee that your co-workers are good housemates just because they are EA.
The most plausible version of this argument is not that someone will be a good housemate just because they are EA. It is that banning or discouraging EA co-living makes it more difficult for people to find any co-living arrangement.
I wonder if there has been discussion about moving EA orgs towards cities with less housing problems in general?
I know people reap social benefits from good housing but that’s not the only reason EAs live in London and SF. They are also the cities where the jobs, research and power are.
I think funders should take into account that remote orgs are ? cheaper, but I trust orgs to decide where they should locate.
I agree that for a lot of orgs, the benefits of being in the high-rent areas outweigh the costs. However I want to encourage orgs that don’t fit this description to consider different locations, if only to give people different options.
For me personally, and probably a lot of other people, the idea of living with my boss and using our shared house as an office sounds like my own personal hell. If I got an offer with that arrangement I would refuse immediately. Whereas if the city was in Portugal or somewhere similar, where things are cheap and you can rent your own place for 500 bucks a month, I’d probably jump at the opportunity.
I think not having the option, and having everyone be concentrated in one or two high-rent areas, costs both money and the people you want to recruit.
Just noting though that this would be a false dichotomy.
I agree that we shouldn’t have a universal ban on co-living and that bureaucracy is bad all else equal. But this doesn’t seem like the only option available. As Xavier_ORourke said above:
“we can all contribute to preventing [the bullet pointed actions] by judging things on a case-by-case basis and gently but firmly letting our peers know when we disapprove of their choices”
I feel that our tendency as EAs to think of ourselves as analogous to one org where we can “ban” something is an issue within itself. Intuitively, there feels a lot of value gained by thinking of ourselves more like social a movement, where we are only ever in the business of making cultural norms instead of rules.
I’m concerned about EA falling into the standard “risk-averse bureaucracy” failure mode. Every time something visibly bad happens, the bureaucracy puts a bunch of safeguards in place. Over time the drag created by the safeguards does a lot of harm, but because the harm isn’t as visible, the bureaucracy doesn’t work as effectively to reduce it.
I would like to see Fermi estimates for some of these, including explicit estimates of less-visible downsides. For example, consider EA co-living, including for co-workers. If this was banned universally, my guess is that it would mean EAs paying many thousands of dollars extra in rent for housing and/or office space per month. It would probably lead to reduced motivation, increased loneliness, and wasted commute time among EAs. EA funding would become more scarce, likely triggering Goodharting for EAs who want to obtain funding, or people dying senselessly in the developing world.
A ban on co-living doesn’t seem very cost-effective to me. It seems to me that expanding initiatives like Basefund would achieve something similar, but be far more cost-effective.
I consider power-dynamics safeguards that make sure, for example, that anyone can quit their job and still have a place to stay—to be deontological. You won’t change my mind easily using a cost-benefit analysis, if the argument will be something like “for the greater good, it’s ok to make it very hard for some people to quit, because it will save EA money that can be used to save more lives”.
This is similar to how it would be hard to convince me that stealing is a good idea—even if we can use the money to buy bed nets.
I can elaborate if you don’t agree. (or maybe you totally agree and then there’s no need)
Also, I wouldn’t make one group out of all the “risk-averse bureaucracy”. Preventing the abuse of power dynamics is a specific instance that should get special treatment imo
There are millions of people around the world who live paycheck to paycheck, and run the risk of becoming homeless if they quit their jobs. We don’t have the resources to help all of those people, and I’m not immediately seeing how deontology helps us figure out how to allocate our limited resources between this and various other obligations we may have. [Edit: maybe this section was obtuse on my part—see Yonatan’s reply below.]
I think it is really valuable for people in EA to feel comfortable pushing back against their boss. (I see strong consequentialist arguments for this. Those arguments are why I will focus on people in EA, rather than non-EAs living paycheck to paycheck, for the rest of this comment.) I think there are ways to achieve this cost-effectively. For example:
When possible, have employee housing arrangements made directly with a landlord or similar person, rather than routing through someone they have a working relationship with.
Agree in advance that any employee who lives for free in employer-provided housing gets to continue living there for, say, 3 months if they quit/get fired.
Build things like Basefund to the point where no EA thinks it is very hard to quit their job. (For example, a hypothetical Basefund+ could guarantee that EA employees who quit/get fired always receive a generous severance package. This idea might seem costly at first, but because the money is going to an EA instead of a landlord, it is much more likely to e.g. be donated to an effective charity.)
Encourage EAs to live with non-EAs when all else is equal.
(I mostly agree)
When I wrote about deontology, I didn’t mean “we must help all people who are stuck in their jobs”. I meant “we must not hire people who will be stuck in their job while arguing that it’s ok to do so for the greater good”
I agree that we should be wary of falling into the “risk-averse bureaucracy” failure mode, and I also think co-living for co-workers at a similar seniority level is fine (it is also normal outside EA). I also think there might be a good case for EA houses trying to have people from different orgs.
However, I’d like to point out that any Fermi estimates here would be fairly pointless. There are many different inputs you would need, and the reasonable range for each input is very wide, particularly with “potential reputational harm to EA from bad thing happening”, which can range from nothing to FTX-level or far worse.
If it’s pointless to do a Fermi estimate, that sounds a lot like saying it’s pointless to try and figure out whether a ban is a good idea?
If that’s the case, I favor letting people decide for themselves—individuals understand their particular context, and can make a guess that’s customized for their particular situation.
People will decide for themselves. There’s no government here to enforce a ban. But it would be frowned upon at the community level.
A question here is something like “how do norms get removed?” what process allows people more freedom if we have restricted too much.
I’m not for a blanket ban (and I doubt the OP is either), but this analysis seems like it only really applies to places like the bay area with ridiculously high rent and housing shortages.
I mean, I live in a place considered to have very high rent, and not being able to live with my co-workers wouldn’t affect me in the slightest, I can bike to work, I houseshare with non-coworkers. Loneliness in a house share situation depends entirely on whether your housemates are good, and there is no guarantee that your co-workers are good housemates just because they are EA.
I wonder if there has been discussion about moving EA orgs towards cities with less housing problems in general?
The most plausible version of this argument is not that someone will be a good housemate just because they are EA. It is that banning or discouraging EA co-living makes it more difficult for people to find any co-living arrangement.
I know people reap social benefits from good housing but that’s not the only reason EAs live in London and SF. They are also the cities where the jobs, research and power are.
I think funders should take into account that remote orgs are ? cheaper, but I trust orgs to decide where they should locate.
I agree that for a lot of orgs, the benefits of being in the high-rent areas outweigh the costs. However I want to encourage orgs that don’t fit this description to consider different locations, if only to give people different options.
For me personally, and probably a lot of other people, the idea of living with my boss and using our shared house as an office sounds like my own personal hell. If I got an offer with that arrangement I would refuse immediately. Whereas if the city was in Portugal or somewhere similar, where things are cheap and you can rent your own place for 500 bucks a month, I’d probably jump at the opportunity.
I think not having the option, and having everyone be concentrated in one or two high-rent areas, costs both money and the people you want to recruit.
Just noting though that this would be a false dichotomy.
I agree that we shouldn’t have a universal ban on co-living and that bureaucracy is bad all else equal. But this doesn’t seem like the only option available. As Xavier_ORourke said above: “we can all contribute to preventing [the bullet pointed actions] by judging things on a case-by-case basis and gently but firmly letting our peers know when we disapprove of their choices”
I feel that our tendency as EAs to think of ourselves as analogous to one org where we can “ban” something is an issue within itself. Intuitively, there feels a lot of value gained by thinking of ourselves more like social a movement, where we are only ever in the business of making cultural norms instead of rules.