So I notice Fox ranks pretty low on that list, but if you click through to the link, they rank very high among Republicans (second to only the weather channel). Fox definitely uses rhetoric like that. After Fox (among Republicans) are Newsman and OAN, which similarly both use rhetoric like that. (And FWIW, I also wouldn’t be super surprised to see somewhat similar rhetoric from WSJ or Forbes, though probably said less bluntly.)
I’d also note that the left-leaning media uses somewhat similar rhetoric for conservative issues that are supported by large groups (e.g., Trumpism in general, climate denialism, etc), so it’s not just a one-directional phenomena.
Yes, I noticed that. Certain news organisations, which are trusted by an important subsection of the US population, often characterise progressive movements as uninformed mobs. That is clear. But if you define ‘reputable’ as ‘those organisations most trusted by the general public’, which seems like a reasonable definition, then, based on the YouGov analysis, Fox et al. is not reputable. But then maybe YouGov’s method is flawed? That’s plausible.
But we’ve fallen into a bit of a digression here. As I see it, there are four cruxes:
Does a focus on the inside game make us vulnerable to the criticism that we’re a part of a conspiracy?
For me, yes.
Does this have the potential to undermine our efforts?
For me, yes.
If we reallocate (to some degree) towards the outside game in an effort to hedge against this risk, are we likely to be labelled an uninformed mob, and thus undermine our efforts?
For me, no, not anytime soon (although, as you state, organisations such as Fox will do this before organisations such as PBS, and Fox is trusted by an important subsection of the US population).
Is it unquestionably OK to try to guide society without broader societal participation?
For me, no.
I think our biggest disagreement is with 3. I think it’s possible to undermine our efforts by acting in such a way that organisations such as Fox characterise us as an uninformed mob. However, I think we’re a long, long way from that happening. You seem to think we’re much closer, is that correct? Could you explain why?
I don’t know where you stand on 4.
P.S. I’m enjoying this discussion, thanks for taking the time!
So I notice Fox ranks pretty low on that list, but if you click through to the link, they rank very high among Republicans (second to only the weather channel). Fox definitely uses rhetoric like that. After Fox (among Republicans) are Newsman and OAN, which similarly both use rhetoric like that. (And FWIW, I also wouldn’t be super surprised to see somewhat similar rhetoric from WSJ or Forbes, though probably said less bluntly.)
I’d also note that the left-leaning media uses somewhat similar rhetoric for conservative issues that are supported by large groups (e.g., Trumpism in general, climate denialism, etc), so it’s not just a one-directional phenomena.
Yes, I noticed that. Certain news organisations, which are trusted by an important subsection of the US population, often characterise progressive movements as uninformed mobs. That is clear. But if you define ‘reputable’ as ‘those organisations most trusted by the general public’, which seems like a reasonable definition, then, based on the YouGov analysis, Fox et al. is not reputable. But then maybe YouGov’s method is flawed? That’s plausible.
But we’ve fallen into a bit of a digression here. As I see it, there are four cruxes:
Does a focus on the inside game make us vulnerable to the criticism that we’re a part of a conspiracy?
For me, yes.
Does this have the potential to undermine our efforts?
For me, yes.
If we reallocate (to some degree) towards the outside game in an effort to hedge against this risk, are we likely to be labelled an uninformed mob, and thus undermine our efforts?
For me, no, not anytime soon (although, as you state, organisations such as Fox will do this before organisations such as PBS, and Fox is trusted by an important subsection of the US population).
Is it unquestionably OK to try to guide society without broader societal participation?
For me, no.
I think our biggest disagreement is with 3. I think it’s possible to undermine our efforts by acting in such a way that organisations such as Fox characterise us as an uninformed mob. However, I think we’re a long, long way from that happening. You seem to think we’re much closer, is that correct? Could you explain why?
I don’t know where you stand on 4.
P.S. I’m enjoying this discussion, thanks for taking the time!