Thank you for raising this. I appreciate pushback.
I don’t think this issue is being brigaded. If it were we’d see a load of chat on twitter. I think that explains too much. I just would bet it isn’t the case. Some people are making new burners but I’d guess that’s it.
My top level comment is in positive karma. Just as you don’t like the polls, many people do. In fact I’ve received 2-3 messages to that end. What you and those who agree with you are doing is expressing a preference. Others have different preferences. And the evidence suggests that your preference is not the overwhelming majority.
I would like to be better and more gracious at doing this. But I think that it provides information on balance. Again, as the karma shows, people agree.
I like polls sure, and martyrdom, but also feel scared and tired and like the truth is getting ignored because it’s impolitic. The truth seems to be that people have more complex views on this than is comfortable, in many directions.
I am deeply confused by the idea that we want to make comments and look at the voting (which we do, people regularly comment on it) but that trying to establish simple ideas is somehow a different class of thing.
I suggest that many people don’t like what these polls show and so instead think “they must be inaccurate or inappropriate”. I don’t think so (70%), and I’m pretty well calibrated. In time, I think just as criticisms of me saying FTX would go really badly were false, so will the idea that EAs hold simple views on the topic of this case. I think people would do well to be curious—what do people in EA believe? What do women believe and want? What norms will create a community that does the most good? Again, I don’t know, but I don’t think that anyone else does either
On the what “Owen did was not “wrong and very serious” ” poll, I think that is a deeply unpopular view to express under one’s own name, so I’m not surprised people haven’t said it. But I think it’s a thing people believe—I’ve talked to some. I think it’s easy to be repulsed by this, to theorize that these people don’t care about the accusers welfare or are closing ranks around Cotton Barrett. I don’t know! Which is why I ask. It seems clear to me that this discussion is a scary and exhausting place, not just for people who ignore the polls but for those who are voting in ways that surprise you.
I think of this community as a brain. And when my brain is scared and hurt it comes to quick conclusions “Owen is really bad” “casual sex should not happen in EA” or “Owen was misunderstood” “We should be able to do what we want”. But this often isn’t useful. Instead I want to understand what happened, what makes people able to keep doing good work and what good norms should be. And allowing the community to raise it’s prefereces is the first part of that. Many people seemingly thought that SBF was reckless and broke promises. I wish we’d had some comment polls about that.
Bruce, I am glad you raised this and thanks to any who agree with him. I like you and I like your desire to create a safe environment for discourse. I know this feels weird and I think it could be done better. I desire that we have some sense of what people believe and I feel that strongly. I feel sad and frustrated and curious and like making polls and crying and many other things. I wish you all well.
Quick thoughts:
Thank you for raising this. I appreciate pushback.
I don’t think this issue is being brigaded. If it were we’d see a load of chat on twitter. I think that explains too much. I just would bet it isn’t the case. Some people are making new burners but I’d guess that’s it.
My top level comment is in positive karma. Just as you don’t like the polls, many people do. In fact I’ve received 2-3 messages to that end. What you and those who agree with you are doing is expressing a preference. Others have different preferences. And the evidence suggests that your preference is not the overwhelming majority.
I would like to be better and more gracious at doing this. But I think that it provides information on balance. Again, as the karma shows, people agree.
I like polls sure, and martyrdom, but also feel scared and tired and like the truth is getting ignored because it’s impolitic. The truth seems to be that people have more complex views on this than is comfortable, in many directions.
I am deeply confused by the idea that we want to make comments and look at the voting (which we do, people regularly comment on it) but that trying to establish simple ideas is somehow a different class of thing.
I suggest that many people don’t like what these polls show and so instead think “they must be inaccurate or inappropriate”. I don’t think so (70%), and I’m pretty well calibrated. In time, I think just as criticisms of me saying FTX would go really badly were false, so will the idea that EAs hold simple views on the topic of this case. I think people would do well to be curious—what do people in EA believe? What do women believe and want? What norms will create a community that does the most good? Again, I don’t know, but I don’t think that anyone else does either
On the what “Owen did was not “wrong and very serious” ” poll, I think that is a deeply unpopular view to express under one’s own name, so I’m not surprised people haven’t said it. But I think it’s a thing people believe—I’ve talked to some. I think it’s easy to be repulsed by this, to theorize that these people don’t care about the accusers welfare or are closing ranks around Cotton Barrett. I don’t know! Which is why I ask. It seems clear to me that this discussion is a scary and exhausting place, not just for people who ignore the polls but for those who are voting in ways that surprise you.
I think of this community as a brain. And when my brain is scared and hurt it comes to quick conclusions “Owen is really bad” “casual sex should not happen in EA” or “Owen was misunderstood” “We should be able to do what we want”. But this often isn’t useful. Instead I want to understand what happened, what makes people able to keep doing good work and what good norms should be. And allowing the community to raise it’s prefereces is the first part of that. Many people seemingly thought that SBF was reckless and broke promises. I wish we’d had some comment polls about that.
Bruce, I am glad you raised this and thanks to any who agree with him. I like you and I like your desire to create a safe environment for discourse. I know this feels weird and I think it could be done better. I desire that we have some sense of what people believe and I feel that strongly. I feel sad and frustrated and curious and like making polls and crying and many other things. I wish you all well.