I had ChatGPT rewrite this. Probably not the best place to share this, but if I don’t post here it here, might not post it anywhere.
My impression is that young women new to the community have at the least felt uncomfortable or uneasy in EA in some of their interactions with men who’ve been in the community longer and are a bit older. There’s probably enough of an issue here that it warrants a systemic solution.
As for myself, I admit that I have contributed a bit to the problem. Being a bit older and having been in the community for a while, I have engaged romantically and sexually with women who are younger and new to the community. Looking back, I recognize the problematic power dynamics at play and think there are things I would take back if I could. Nothing egregious, just stuff that wasn’t ideal.
I’m uncertain about the ideal systematic changes and norms, and where to draw the line when it comes to engaging in romantic relationships. While not abusing power is obvious, the gray area is unclear.
In my opinion, the best changes will come from a deeper understanding of the current situation and how we got here. From what I’ve seen, heterosexual men in the EA community who seek intimate relationships with women face significant challenges due to the crushing gender ratio. It can feel like a highly competitive environment where only the most attractive and successful men have any “luck.” Finding relationships outside of EA doesn’t feel like a real solution either, especially when one wants a partner who shares similar values and culture.
In my experience, being in the community for a long time or working in an organization does not feel powerful from the inside. Even in that position , it can lonely and desperate from a romantic/sexual angle, which in turn can make attractive women feel like they have significant power. As for me, I’m not particularly interested in women in their early 20s, both because of age and power imbalances and because of maturity and other factors. However, this age range seems to be where EA is most successful at recruiting women. Selfishly, I’d love to see more mid-late 20s or older women join.
There’s also the issue of pursuing younger women simply because they might be more impressed with one’s accomplishments so far. However, it would be fantastic if a woman a bit older with many impressive accomplishments took an interest in me. Unfortunately, it seems like women who are already established in the community are already in relationships, leaving only people new to the community as options.
In summary, while from angle there are men who are abusing their power and influence to gain sexual favor with younger woman, from another angle you have men who don’t feel that powerful and do feel lonely and desperate. This does not justify all behavior, of course. I believe that understanding where this behavior comes from is essential to changing it. That’s why I’m writing this.
The gender ratio imbalance in the EA community is a significant challenge, and I don’t think there are any quick or easy solutions. It is a challenging situation for both men and women, albeit in different ways. While this does not excuse mistreating others for one’s own needs, a better understanding of the root causes may help us be more effective in changing this behavior.
A solution might look like teaching people to recognize the power and influence they have even when it doesn’t feel like they have it. As Owen points out, it’s harder to see soft power.
Something about this comment rubbed me the wrong way. EA is not meant to be a dating service, and while there are many people in the community who are open to the idea of dating someone within EA or actively searching for this, there are also many people who joined for entirely different reasons and don’t consider this a priority/don’t want this.
I think that viewing the relationship between men and women in EA this way—eg. men competing for attention, where lonely and desperate men will do what it takes to to get with women—does a disservice to both genders. It sounds like a) an uncomfortable environment for women to join, because they don’t want to be swarmed by a bunch of desperate men, and b) an uncomfortable environment for men, because to some extent it seems to justify men doing more and more to get the attention of women, often at the cost of women being made to feel uncomfortable. (And many men in EA do not want women to feel uncomfortable!)
Let’s zoom out a bit. To me, it’s not that important that everyone in EA gets a match. I find the gender imbalance concerning for lots of reasons, but ‘a lack of women for men to match with’ is not on my list of concerns. Even if there was a perfect 50⁄50 balance of men and women, I think there would still be lonely men willing to abuse their power. (Like you said, many women come into the movement already in relationships, some men/women do not want to date within the movement, and some people are unfortunately just not people others want to date.) So the problem is not the lack of women, but rather the fact that men in powerful positions are either blind to their own power, or can see their power and are willing to abuse that power, and there are not sufficient systems in place to prevent this from happening, or even to stop it once it has happened.
Does anyone have data on retention rates in EA by age and gender? This comment makes me wonder if the effects of a hostile environment for young women would be demonstrated in that data.
I appreciate the comment, and agree that accurately understanding motivations is important for effective reform. I also agree that a lot (if not most) of the harassment/women face in EA come from sentiments like the one you’re describing in this comment. Admitting fault and vulnerability can be difficult to share, and I’m glad you’re doing so.
I also agree with S.E. Montgomery’s reply that some of this comment rubbed me the wrong way. As I mentioned, my guess is that most sexual harassment stems from sentiments like the one you described. It comes from an understandable place—romantic longing—but has oppressive outcomes. This means, even if the emotional origin is sympathetic, the men who hold this perspective should still work to change their perspective. The specific manifestation of romantic longing that I find ends up being oppressive is one which causes men to see EA women they encounter primarily as potential romantic/sexual partners. Rather than say, having their thoughts about a woman shaped by her professional accomplishments or personality. This is de-personifying, and leads to many harmful behaviors. If you meet a woman and categorize her primarily as a romantic/sexual interest, you are much less likely to instinctively think of other aspects of her. For example, if you learn of a new opportunity, and are thinking of people who might be matches for it, just on a gut level, it makes it more likely you’ll forget about her when you’re not in a romantic/sexual state-of-mind. Or, if you describe her to other people, if you are primarily commenting on her appearance/your interest in her, what you are then not commenting on (at least as much) is other aspects of her, aspects you would describe if you were meeting a man. This causes other people to view her in a de-personifying way, even if they’ve never met her/don’t have any romantic/sexual interest in her. Maybe she gets a reputation for being a “hot EA” rather than a reputation for something like “early career but seems good at x/y skills, and quirky in z way.” Usually, it’s more subtle than this, but still quite harmful.
Your comment is reflecting on this, and I appreciate that. But some sections come across as you are still framing women’s primary role, at least here, as potential romantic partners. I think you could write a comment about this motivation and how you are still wrestling with it in your own life, without indulging it it so much. Sorry if that’s too forward.
One sentence that stood out to me in particular:
“Selfishly, I’d love to see more mid-late 20s or older women join.” This gives me the impression that the main thing you think of when you think of older women joining is how it benefits your dating prospects. That’s at least the framing here, though in real life I would guess you oscillate more between this framing and a more personifying one. But this specific sentence has no real reason for being here. There’s some self-reflection that this perspective is harmful (the “selfishly”) but not enough in my view. If this statement was necessary to include, I would have liked to see more caveating along the lines of “I don’t like that this is how I think and I’m trying to change it, but …” But since this statement seems unnecessary to me, I’m wondering why it’s even included.
The section that S.E. Montgomery commented on about EA’s gender ratio also stood out to me. As they already explained, it read to me like you were saying one important reason to work on the gender imbalance is to help men date. That seems like a nice benefit of improving the gender ratio, but far and away from the most important reasons for it. Framing it in a dating context feels uncomfortable.
I’m going into detail about this comment not because I want to chastise you or anything, but because this serves (to me at least) of an example of where a lot of harassing/objectifying/oppressive behavior towards women comes from. It’s a subtle thing, so I want other people to read this, see an example worked out in real life, and have that inform their thoughts in the future. This comment isn’t egregious or anything; and I think it is quite valuable for many reasons (namely, the content itself, describing motivations). But I also wanted to point out in detail what I saw as flaws.
I had ChatGPT rewrite this. Probably not the best place to share this, but if I don’t post here it here, might not post it anywhere.
My impression is that young women new to the community have at the least felt uncomfortable or uneasy in EA in some of their interactions with men who’ve been in the community longer and are a bit older. There’s probably enough of an issue here that it warrants a systemic solution.
As for myself, I admit that I have contributed a bit to the problem. Being a bit older and having been in the community for a while, I have engaged romantically and sexually with women who are younger and new to the community. Looking back, I recognize the problematic power dynamics at play and think there are things I would take back if I could. Nothing egregious, just stuff that wasn’t ideal.
I’m uncertain about the ideal systematic changes and norms, and where to draw the line when it comes to engaging in romantic relationships. While not abusing power is obvious, the gray area is unclear.
In my opinion, the best changes will come from a deeper understanding of the current situation and how we got here. From what I’ve seen, heterosexual men in the EA community who seek intimate relationships with women face significant challenges due to the crushing gender ratio. It can feel like a highly competitive environment where only the most attractive and successful men have any “luck.” Finding relationships outside of EA doesn’t feel like a real solution either, especially when one wants a partner who shares similar values and culture.
In my experience, being in the community for a long time or working in an organization does not feel powerful from the inside. Even in that position , it can lonely and desperate from a romantic/sexual angle, which in turn can make attractive women feel like they have significant power. As for me, I’m not particularly interested in women in their early 20s, both because of age and power imbalances and because of maturity and other factors. However, this age range seems to be where EA is most successful at recruiting women. Selfishly, I’d love to see more mid-late 20s or older women join.
There’s also the issue of pursuing younger women simply because they might be more impressed with one’s accomplishments so far. However, it would be fantastic if a woman a bit older with many impressive accomplishments took an interest in me. Unfortunately, it seems like women who are already established in the community are already in relationships, leaving only people new to the community as options.
In summary, while from angle there are men who are abusing their power and influence to gain sexual favor with younger woman, from another angle you have men who don’t feel that powerful and do feel lonely and desperate. This does not justify all behavior, of course. I believe that understanding where this behavior comes from is essential to changing it. That’s why I’m writing this.
The gender ratio imbalance in the EA community is a significant challenge, and I don’t think there are any quick or easy solutions. It is a challenging situation for both men and women, albeit in different ways. While this does not excuse mistreating others for one’s own needs, a better understanding of the root causes may help us be more effective in changing this behavior.
A solution might look like teaching people to recognize the power and influence they have even when it doesn’t feel like they have it. As Owen points out, it’s harder to see soft power.
Something about this comment rubbed me the wrong way. EA is not meant to be a dating service, and while there are many people in the community who are open to the idea of dating someone within EA or actively searching for this, there are also many people who joined for entirely different reasons and don’t consider this a priority/don’t want this.
I think that viewing the relationship between men and women in EA this way—eg. men competing for attention, where lonely and desperate men will do what it takes to to get with women—does a disservice to both genders. It sounds like a) an uncomfortable environment for women to join, because they don’t want to be swarmed by a bunch of desperate men, and b) an uncomfortable environment for men, because to some extent it seems to justify men doing more and more to get the attention of women, often at the cost of women being made to feel uncomfortable. (And many men in EA do not want women to feel uncomfortable!)
Let’s zoom out a bit. To me, it’s not that important that everyone in EA gets a match. I find the gender imbalance concerning for lots of reasons, but ‘a lack of women for men to match with’ is not on my list of concerns. Even if there was a perfect 50⁄50 balance of men and women, I think there would still be lonely men willing to abuse their power. (Like you said, many women come into the movement already in relationships, some men/women do not want to date within the movement, and some people are unfortunately just not people others want to date.) So the problem is not the lack of women, but rather the fact that men in powerful positions are either blind to their own power, or can see their power and are willing to abuse that power, and there are not sufficient systems in place to prevent this from happening, or even to stop it once it has happened.
Does anyone have data on retention rates in EA by age and gender? This comment makes me wonder if the effects of a hostile environment for young women would be demonstrated in that data.
Are men more likely to attend EA London events? Attendance data, 2016-2018.
I appreciate the comment, and agree that accurately understanding motivations is important for effective reform. I also agree that a lot (if not most) of the harassment/women face in EA come from sentiments like the one you’re describing in this comment. Admitting fault and vulnerability can be difficult to share, and I’m glad you’re doing so.
I also agree with S.E. Montgomery’s reply that some of this comment rubbed me the wrong way. As I mentioned, my guess is that most sexual harassment stems from sentiments like the one you described. It comes from an understandable place—romantic longing—but has oppressive outcomes. This means, even if the emotional origin is sympathetic, the men who hold this perspective should still work to change their perspective. The specific manifestation of romantic longing that I find ends up being oppressive is one which causes men to see EA women they encounter primarily as potential romantic/sexual partners. Rather than say, having their thoughts about a woman shaped by her professional accomplishments or personality. This is de-personifying, and leads to many harmful behaviors. If you meet a woman and categorize her primarily as a romantic/sexual interest, you are much less likely to instinctively think of other aspects of her. For example, if you learn of a new opportunity, and are thinking of people who might be matches for it, just on a gut level, it makes it more likely you’ll forget about her when you’re not in a romantic/sexual state-of-mind. Or, if you describe her to other people, if you are primarily commenting on her appearance/your interest in her, what you are then not commenting on (at least as much) is other aspects of her, aspects you would describe if you were meeting a man. This causes other people to view her in a de-personifying way, even if they’ve never met her/don’t have any romantic/sexual interest in her. Maybe she gets a reputation for being a “hot EA” rather than a reputation for something like “early career but seems good at x/y skills, and quirky in z way.” Usually, it’s more subtle than this, but still quite harmful.
Your comment is reflecting on this, and I appreciate that. But some sections come across as you are still framing women’s primary role, at least here, as potential romantic partners. I think you could write a comment about this motivation and how you are still wrestling with it in your own life, without indulging it it so much. Sorry if that’s too forward.
One sentence that stood out to me in particular:
“Selfishly, I’d love to see more mid-late 20s or older women join.” This gives me the impression that the main thing you think of when you think of older women joining is how it benefits your dating prospects. That’s at least the framing here, though in real life I would guess you oscillate more between this framing and a more personifying one. But this specific sentence has no real reason for being here. There’s some self-reflection that this perspective is harmful (the “selfishly”) but not enough in my view. If this statement was necessary to include, I would have liked to see more caveating along the lines of “I don’t like that this is how I think and I’m trying to change it, but …” But since this statement seems unnecessary to me, I’m wondering why it’s even included.
The section that S.E. Montgomery commented on about EA’s gender ratio also stood out to me. As they already explained, it read to me like you were saying one important reason to work on the gender imbalance is to help men date. That seems like a nice benefit of improving the gender ratio, but far and away from the most important reasons for it. Framing it in a dating context feels uncomfortable.
I’m going into detail about this comment not because I want to chastise you or anything, but because this serves (to me at least) of an example of where a lot of harassing/objectifying/oppressive behavior towards women comes from. It’s a subtle thing, so I want other people to read this, see an example worked out in real life, and have that inform their thoughts in the future. This comment isn’t egregious or anything; and I think it is quite valuable for many reasons (namely, the content itself, describing motivations). But I also wanted to point out in detail what I saw as flaws.