Habryka, just wanted to say thank you for your contributions to the Forum. Overall I’ve appreciated them a lot! I’m happy that we’ll continue to collaborate behind the scenes, at least because I think there’s still plenty I can learn from you. I think we agree that running the Forum is a big responsibility, so I hope you feel free to share your honest thoughts with me.
I do think we disagree on some points. For example, you seem significantly more negative about CEA than I am (I’m probably biased because I work there, though I certainly don’t think it’s perfect). I also think that the discussions on the Forum do affect real change, though of course it’s hard to know how much with any real confidence. I know of at least two specific cases when a person in a position with some power (in the real world, not in the EA community) has taken action based on something they read on the Forum, and my impression is that many people who have power within the EA community continue to read the Forum even if they don’t make time to write here. Of course, it’s true that they could ignore serious criticism is they wanted to, but my sense is that people actually quite often feel unable to ignore criticism. So I guess I am more optimistic that the Forum, as an extremely public community space, can continue to provide value by playing this role.
By the way, I personally care a lot about EA reaching its future potential for doing the most good. Habryka, I don’t know the details of what you went through when trying to make things better, but I’m sorry to hear that it felt so bad. I’ll just say that, if anyone feels like they are trying to make things better in EA and are unable to do so, you’re welcome to reach out to me directly (you can message me via the Forum). I will at least hear you out and give you my thoughts, and perhaps you can convince me to help.
Of course, it’s true that they could ignore serious criticism is they wanted to, but my sense is that people actually quite often feel unable to ignore criticism.
As someone sympathetic to many of Habryka’s positions, while also disagreeing with many of Habryka’s positions, my immediate reaction to this was “well that seems like a bad thing”, c.f.
shallow criticism often gets valorized
I’d feel differently if you had said “people feel obliged to take criticism seriously if it points at a real problem” or something like that, but I agree with you that the mechanism is more like “people are unable to ignore criticism irrespective of its quality” (the popularity of the criticism matters, but sadly that is only weakly correlated with quality).
I appreciate you sharing your views on this! I agree that as a whole, this is suboptimal.
I don’t currently feel confident enough about the take that “shallow criticism often gets valorized” to prioritize tackling it, though I am spending some time thinking about moderation and managing user-generated content and I expect that the mod team (including myself) will discuss how we’d like to handle critical comments, so this will probably come up in our discussions.
I’m kind of worried that there’s not necessarily an objective truth to how shallow/low-quality any particular criticism is, and I personally would prefer to err on the side of allowing more criticism. So it’s possible that not much changes in the public discourse, and any interventions we do may need to be behind the scenes (such as our team spending more time talking with people who get criticized).
Habryka, just wanted to say thank you for your contributions to the Forum. Overall I’ve appreciated them a lot! I’m happy that we’ll continue to collaborate behind the scenes, at least because I think there’s still plenty I can learn from you. I think we agree that running the Forum is a big responsibility, so I hope you feel free to share your honest thoughts with me.
I do think we disagree on some points. For example, you seem significantly more negative about CEA than I am (I’m probably biased because I work there, though I certainly don’t think it’s perfect). I also think that the discussions on the Forum do affect real change, though of course it’s hard to know how much with any real confidence. I know of at least two specific cases when a person in a position with some power (in the real world, not in the EA community) has taken action based on something they read on the Forum, and my impression is that many people who have power within the EA community continue to read the Forum even if they don’t make time to write here. Of course, it’s true that they could ignore serious criticism is they wanted to, but my sense is that people actually quite often feel unable to ignore criticism. So I guess I am more optimistic that the Forum, as an extremely public community space, can continue to provide value by playing this role.
By the way, I personally care a lot about EA reaching its future potential for doing the most good. Habryka, I don’t know the details of what you went through when trying to make things better, but I’m sorry to hear that it felt so bad. I’ll just say that, if anyone feels like they are trying to make things better in EA and are unable to do so, you’re welcome to reach out to me directly (you can message me via the Forum). I will at least hear you out and give you my thoughts, and perhaps you can convince me to help.
As someone sympathetic to many of Habryka’s positions, while also disagreeing with many of Habryka’s positions, my immediate reaction to this was “well that seems like a bad thing”, c.f.
I’d feel differently if you had said “people feel obliged to take criticism seriously if it points at a real problem” or something like that, but I agree with you that the mechanism is more like “people are unable to ignore criticism irrespective of its quality” (the popularity of the criticism matters, but sadly that is only weakly correlated with quality).
I appreciate you sharing your views on this! I agree that as a whole, this is suboptimal.
I don’t currently feel confident enough about the take that “shallow criticism often gets valorized” to prioritize tackling it, though I am spending some time thinking about moderation and managing user-generated content and I expect that the mod team (including myself) will discuss how we’d like to handle critical comments, so this will probably come up in our discussions.
I’m kind of worried that there’s not necessarily an objective truth to how shallow/low-quality any particular criticism is, and I personally would prefer to err on the side of allowing more criticism. So it’s possible that not much changes in the public discourse, and any interventions we do may need to be behind the scenes (such as our team spending more time talking with people who get criticized).