This was a conversation with me, and sadly strikes me as a strawman of the questions asked (I could recount the conversation more in-full, though that feels a bit privacy violating). … I often ask the same types of question with regards to AI Alignment research
Apologies if I misrepresented this in some way (if helpful and if you have a recording or notes happy for things I said and you said to be public). I have not had this kind of questioning on any other funding applications and it felt very strange to me. I said in an email to Caleb (EA funds) recently that “it would surprise me a lot if people applying for grants to do say AI safety technical work got an hour of [this type]”. So perhaps count me as surprised. If this kind of questioning is just an idoscyratic Habryka tool for getting to better grips with applicants of different types then I am happy with it. Will edit the post.
Of course on the LTFF I do not take it as a given that any specific approach to improving the long term future will work
I guess it depends how specific you are being. Obviously I don’t think it should be taken as given that “specific think tank plan x” would be good, but I do think it is reasonable for a fund to take it as given that at a high level “policy work” would be good. And if the LTFF does not think this then why does the LTFF actively outreach to policy people to get them to apply?
(I recognise there may be a difference here between you Habryka and the rest of LTFF, as you say you are more sceptical than others)
I personally am probably the person on the LTFF most skeptical of policy work, especially of work that aims to do policy-analysis embedded within government institutions, or that looks like it’s just a generic “let’s try to get smarter people into government” approach.
Now it is my turn to claim a strawman. I have never applied to the LTFF with a plan anything close to a “let’s try to get smarter people into government” approach. Nor were any of the 5 applications to the LTFF I am aware of anything like this approach.
FWIW, I think this kind of questioning is fairly Habryka-specific and not really standard for our policy applicants; I think in many cases I wouldn’t expect that it would lead to productive discussions (and in fact could be counterproductive, in that it might put off potential allies who we might want to work with later).
I make the calls on who is the primary evaluator for which grants; as Habryka said, I think he is probably most skeptical of policy work among people on the LTFF, and hasn’t been the primary evaluator for almost any (maybe none?) of the policy-related grants we’ve had. In your case, I thought it was unusually likely that a discussion between you and Habryka would be productive and helpful for my evaluation of the grant (though I was interested primarily in different but related questions, not “whether policy work as a whole is competitive with other grants”), because I generally expect people more embedded in the community (and in the case above, you (Sam) in particular, which I really appreciate), to be more open to pretty frank discussions about the effectiveness of particular plans, lines of work, etc.
FWIW I think if this is just how Habryka works then that is totally fine from my point of view. If it helps him make good decisions then great.
(From the unusualness of the questioning approach and the focus on “why policy” I took it to be a sign that the LTFF was very sceptical of policy change as an approach compared to other approaches, but I may have been mistaken in making this assumption based on this evidence.)
I guess it depends how specific you are being. Obviously I don’t think it should be taken as given that “specific think tank plan x” would be good, but I do think it is reasonable for a fund to take it as given that at a high level “policy work” would be good. And if the LTFF does not think this then why does the LTFF actively outreach to policy people to get them to apply?
I don’t think we should take it as a given! I view figuring out questions like this as most of our job, so of course I don’t want us to have an institutional commitment to a certain answer in this domain.
And if the LTFF does not think this then why does the LTFF actively outreach to policy people to get them to apply?
In order to believe that something could potentially be furthered by someone, or that it has potential, I don’t think I have to take it as a given that work in that general area “would be good”.
I also think it’s important to notice that the LTFF page only lists “policy research” and “advocacy”, and doesn’t explicitly list “policy advocacy” or “policy work” more broadly (see Asya’s clarification below). I don’t think we currently actively solicit a lot of policy work for the LTFF, though maybe other fund managers who are more optimistic about that type of work have done more soliciting.
And separately, the page of course reflects something much closer to the overall funds view (probably with a slant towards Asya, since she is head of the LTFF), and this is generally true for our outreach, and I think it’s good and valuable to have people with a diversity of views on the LTFF (and for people who are more skeptical of certain work to talk to the relevant grantees).
Now it is my turn to claim a strawman. I have never applied to the LTFF with a plan anything close to a “let’s try to get smarter people into government” approach. Nor were any of the 5 applications to the LTFF I am aware of anything like this approach.
Sorry! Seems like this is just me communicating badly. I did not intend to imply (though I can now clearly see how one might read it as such) that your work in-particular falls into this category. I was trying to give some general reasons for why I am skeptical of a lot of policy work (I think only some of these reasons apply to your work). I apologize for the bad communication here.
I also think it’s important to notice that the LTFF page only lists “policy research” and “advocacy”, and doesn’t explicitly list “policy advocacy” or “policy work” more broadly
The page says the LTFF is looking to fund projects on “reducing existential risks through technical research, policy analysis, advocacy, and/or demonstration projects” which a casual reader could take to include policy advocacy. If the aim of the page is to avoid giving the impression that policy advocacy is something the LTFF actively looks to fund then I think it could do a better job.
I don’t think we currently actively solicit a lot of policy work for the LTFF,
Maybe this has stopped now. Last posts I saw was Dec 2021 from an EA Funds staff who has now left (here). Posts said things like: “we’d be excited to consider grants related to policy and politics. We fund all kinds of projects” (here). It is plausible to me that things like that were giving people the wrong impressions and the LTFFs willingness to fund certain projects.
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I don’t think we should take it as a given! I view figuring out questions like this as most of our job, …
Fair enough. That seems like a reasonable approach too and I hope it is going well and you are learning a lot!!
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Sorry! Seems like this is just me communicating badly
No worries. Sorry too for any ways I have misrepresented our past interactions. Keep being wonderful <3
Thank you Habryka. Great to get your views.
Apologies if I misrepresented this in some way (if helpful and if you have a recording or notes happy for things I said and you said to be public). I have not had this kind of questioning on any other funding applications and it felt very strange to me. I said in an email to Caleb (EA funds) recently that “it would surprise me a lot if people applying for grants to do say AI safety technical work got an hour of [this type]”. So perhaps count me as surprised. If this kind of questioning is just an idoscyratic Habryka tool for getting to better grips with applicants of different types then I am happy with it. Will edit the post.
I guess it depends how specific you are being. Obviously I don’t think it should be taken as given that “specific think tank plan x” would be good, but I do think it is reasonable for a fund to take it as given that at a high level “policy work” would be good. And if the LTFF does not think this then why does the LTFF actively outreach to policy people to get them to apply?
(I recognise there may be a difference here between you Habryka and the rest of LTFF, as you say you are more sceptical than others)
Now it is my turn to claim a strawman. I have never applied to the LTFF with a plan anything close to a “let’s try to get smarter people into government” approach. Nor were any of the 5 applications to the LTFF I am aware of anything like this approach.
FWIW, I think this kind of questioning is fairly Habryka-specific and not really standard for our policy applicants; I think in many cases I wouldn’t expect that it would lead to productive discussions (and in fact could be counterproductive, in that it might put off potential allies who we might want to work with later).
I make the calls on who is the primary evaluator for which grants; as Habryka said, I think he is probably most skeptical of policy work among people on the LTFF, and hasn’t been the primary evaluator for almost any (maybe none?) of the policy-related grants we’ve had. In your case, I thought it was unusually likely that a discussion between you and Habryka would be productive and helpful for my evaluation of the grant (though I was interested primarily in different but related questions, not “whether policy work as a whole is competitive with other grants”), because I generally expect people more embedded in the community (and in the case above, you (Sam) in particular, which I really appreciate), to be more open to pretty frank discussions about the effectiveness of particular plans, lines of work, etc.
FWIW I think if this is just how Habryka works then that is totally fine from my point of view. If it helps him make good decisions then great.
(From the unusualness of the questioning approach and the focus on “why policy” I took it to be a sign that the LTFF was very sceptical of policy change as an approach compared to other approaches, but I may have been mistaken in making this assumption based on this evidence.)
I don’t think we should take it as a given! I view figuring out questions like this as most of our job, so of course I don’t want us to have an institutional commitment to a certain answer in this domain.
In order to believe that something could potentially be furthered by someone, or that it has potential, I don’t think I have to take it as a given that work in that general area “would be good”.
I also think it’s important to notice that the LTFF page only lists “policy research” and “advocacy”, and doesn’t explicitly list “policy advocacy” or “policy work” more broadly (see Asya’s clarification below). I don’t think we currently actively solicit a lot of policy work for the LTFF, though maybe other fund managers who are more optimistic about that type of work have done more soliciting.
And separately, the page of course reflects something much closer to the overall funds view (probably with a slant towards Asya, since she is head of the LTFF), and this is generally true for our outreach, and I think it’s good and valuable to have people with a diversity of views on the LTFF (and for people who are more skeptical of certain work to talk to the relevant grantees).
Sorry! Seems like this is just me communicating badly. I did not intend to imply (though I can now clearly see how one might read it as such) that your work in-particular falls into this category. I was trying to give some general reasons for why I am skeptical of a lot of policy work (I think only some of these reasons apply to your work). I apologize for the bad communication here.
The page says the LTFF is looking to fund projects on “reducing existential risks through technical research, policy analysis, advocacy, and/or demonstration projects” which a casual reader could take to include policy advocacy. If the aim of the page is to avoid giving the impression that policy advocacy is something the LTFF actively looks to fund then I think it could do a better job.
Maybe this has stopped now. Last posts I saw was Dec 2021 from an EA Funds staff who has now left (here). Posts said things like: “we’d be excited to consider grants related to policy and politics. We fund all kinds of projects” (here). It is plausible to me that things like that were giving people the wrong impressions and the LTFFs willingness to fund certain projects.
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Fair enough. That seems like a reasonable approach too and I hope it is going well and you are learning a lot!!
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No worries. Sorry too for any ways I have misrepresented our past interactions. Keep being wonderful <3