Key findings of this report include that incremental successes of modest improvements in welfare may distract advocates’ attention from more fundamental political and systemic issues
I would phrase this differently: I think you are saying that activists focused on the welfare of prisoners over the absolute number of prisoners, and that perhaps this was a mistake. This has clear analogues in the farmed animal welfare movement (e.g. promoting meat replacements versus promoting cage free systems), but I would not say that either of these are more “fundamental” than the other.
I also thought that this point:
Litigation may have unintended negative consequences, such as entrenching and legitimizing institutions that advocates are opposed to
Was interesting and seems very relevant to animal welfare. But it sounds like maybe you don’t think the evidence there is strong? I would be curious if you could give some kind of statement about how confident you are that this “legitimizing” consequence happened and/or how likely it is to happen in farmed animal welfare.
Lastly, you mention this:
the federal government, including the Supreme Court, seems to have become more hostile to various forms of public interest law during the 1980s
How receptive the legal system is to these challenges is clearly a crucial consideration for how effective they are, so I would be interested in thoughts/resources about the current legal climate.
Thanks for the comments! It’s great to see what was interesting / useful / confusing etc for people, and generally quite hard to get detailed feedback, so I appreciate you taking the time to read and reply.
I would not say that either of these are more “fundamental” than the other.
Sure. This might just be a semantics/phrasing thing, or it might reflect a whole number of different assumptions we have.
I think you are saying that activists focused on the welfare of prisoners over the absolute number of prisoners, and that perhaps this was a mistake.
Yes! Another caveat is that it’s very unclear whether focusing more on the “more fundamental political and systemic issues” would actually have been a more cost-effective way to help prisoners. (It could have just been intractable to affect those changes, for example)
But it sounds like maybe you don’t think the evidence there is strong?
Correct!
I would be curious if you could give some kind of statement about how confident you are that this “legitimizing” consequence happened and/or how likely it is to happen in farmed animal welfare.
I could give some kind of statement on a number of things:
How confident I am that particular litigation in the prisoners’ rights movement led to particular specific outcomes, e.g. that litigation in Costello v. Wainwright “encouraged prison construction, rather than improvement in the conditions of existing prisons.”
How confident I am that, overall, the litigation in the prisoners’ rights movement had some kind of entrenchment effect (regardless of whether it also had various positive effects)
How confident I am that, overall, the litigation in the prisoners’ rights movement was positive or negative for advancing their goals, and some kind of ballpark guess at its net effects.
Comparable statements of confidence about social movements more broadly.
Comparable statements of confidence about the farmed animal movement specifically.
Because doing any or all of these things for any or all of the “strategic implications” i each case study could be very time consuming, I don’t do it.
I’m hoping that at some point, I’ll be able to do a bit more of a roundup / analysis post, where I look at some of the key themes and leanings from across several of our case studies. There might be more scope for making these sorts of claims or estimates in a post like that, though it still might not be worth the time. I’d be interested in your thoughts on that!
How receptive the legal system is to these challenges is clearly a crucial consideration for how effective they are, so I would be interested in thoughts/resources about the current legal climate.
I’m hoping that at some point, I’ll be able to do a bit more of a roundup / analysis post, where I look at some of the key themes and leanings from across several of our case studies. There might be more scope for making these sorts of claims or estimates in a post like that, though it still might not be worth the time. I’d be interested in your thoughts on that!
Yes, I personally would be interested and would be happy to give my opinions about which of these would be most useful. But (obviously) the priorities of EAA leaders who can put your advice into practice is probably more important.
Thanks for writing this up! Regarding this:
I would phrase this differently: I think you are saying that activists focused on the welfare of prisoners over the absolute number of prisoners, and that perhaps this was a mistake. This has clear analogues in the farmed animal welfare movement (e.g. promoting meat replacements versus promoting cage free systems), but I would not say that either of these are more “fundamental” than the other.
I also thought that this point:
Was interesting and seems very relevant to animal welfare. But it sounds like maybe you don’t think the evidence there is strong? I would be curious if you could give some kind of statement about how confident you are that this “legitimizing” consequence happened and/or how likely it is to happen in farmed animal welfare.
Lastly, you mention this:
How receptive the legal system is to these challenges is clearly a crucial consideration for how effective they are, so I would be interested in thoughts/resources about the current legal climate.
Thanks for the comments! It’s great to see what was interesting / useful / confusing etc for people, and generally quite hard to get detailed feedback, so I appreciate you taking the time to read and reply.
Sure. This might just be a semantics/phrasing thing, or it might reflect a whole number of different assumptions we have.
Yes! Another caveat is that it’s very unclear whether focusing more on the “more fundamental political and systemic issues” would actually have been a more cost-effective way to help prisoners. (It could have just been intractable to affect those changes, for example)
Correct!
I could give some kind of statement on a number of things:
How confident I am that particular litigation in the prisoners’ rights movement led to particular specific outcomes, e.g. that litigation in Costello v. Wainwright “encouraged prison construction, rather than improvement in the conditions of existing prisons.”
How confident I am that, overall, the litigation in the prisoners’ rights movement had some kind of entrenchment effect (regardless of whether it also had various positive effects)
How confident I am that, overall, the litigation in the prisoners’ rights movement was positive or negative for advancing their goals, and some kind of ballpark guess at its net effects.
Comparable statements of confidence about social movements more broadly.
Comparable statements of confidence about the farmed animal movement specifically.
Because doing any or all of these things for any or all of the “strategic implications” i each case study could be very time consuming, I don’t do it.
I’m hoping that at some point, I’ll be able to do a bit more of a roundup / analysis post, where I look at some of the key themes and leanings from across several of our case studies. There might be more scope for making these sorts of claims or estimates in a post like that, though it still might not be worth the time. I’d be interested in your thoughts on that!
I’m afraid I can’t really help here. I did write “Is the US Supreme Court a Driver of Social Change or Driven by it? A Literature Review” and have interviewed Kevin Schneider of the Nonhuman Rights Project, but neither of these resources answer this very directly.
Thanks!
Yes, I personally would be interested and would be happy to give my opinions about which of these would be most useful. But (obviously) the priorities of EAA leaders who can put your advice into practice is probably more important.
Thanks! I hadn’t seen that literature review before and it seems interesting. Added it to my reading list.