I think you might be using “truth-seeking” a bit differently here from how I and others use it, which might be underlying the disagree-votes you’re getting. In particular, I think you might be using “truth-seeking” to refer to an activity (engaging in a particular kind of discourse) rather than an attitude or value, whereas I think it’s more typically used to refer to the latter.
I think it’s very important to the EA endeavor to adopt a truth-seeking mindset about roughly everything, including (and in some cases especially) about hot-button political issues. At the same time, I think that it’s often not helpful to try to hash out those issues out loud in EA spaces, unless they’re directly relevant to cause prioritisation or the cause area under discussion.
Hi Will, thanks for the comment. I agree 100% that it is very good for people to even look at hot button topics but keep such explorations offline.
Perhaps something I should have clarified above, and in danger of being perceived as speaking on behalf of others which is not my intention (instead I am trying to think of the least harmful example here): I was thinking that if I was someone really passionate about global health and doing it right, and coming from a strong Christian background, I might feel alienated from EA if it was required of me to frequently challenge my Christian faith.
So I think I was talking in terms of an attitude or value. For the above example of a Christian EA, and using another example of an atheist or at least agnostic EA who is super truth-seeking across the board, I could see the latter using this post to come to the conclusion that the Christian EA is not really EA as that person refuses to dive deep into the epistemics of their religious belief. This is what I wanted to highlight. And personally I think the Christian EA above is super helpful even for EAs who think they are not 100% truth-seeking: They have connections to lots of other Christians who want to do good and could influence them to do even better. They also understand large swaths of global population and can be effective communicators and ensure various initiatives from Pause AI to bed nets go well when delivered to Christian populations. Or they might just be a super good alignment researcher and not care too much about knowing the truth of everything. And the diversity of thought they bring also has value.
That said, I think “global truth-seekers” are also really important to EA—I think we would be much worse off if we did not have any people who were willing to go into every single issue trying to get ground contact with truth.
If helpful, and very simplistically, I guess I am wondering which of the two alternatives below we think is ideal?
Of course, one subset of Christians or other religious believers believe that the subjects of their religious beliefs follow from (or at least accord with) their rationality. This would contrast with the position that you seem to be indicating, which I believe is called fideism, which would hold that some religious beliefs cannot be reached by rational thinking. I would be interested in seeing what portion of EAs hold their religious beliefs explicitly in violation of what they believe to be rational, but I suspect that it would be few.
In any case, I believe truthseeking is generally a good way to live for even religious people who hold certain beliefs in spite of what they take to be good reason. Ostensibly, they would simply not apply it to one set of their beliefs.
That is a good point and an untested assumption behind my hesitation to “fully endorse truth-seeking in EA”. That said, I would be surprised if all EAs, or even a majority, did everything they do and believed everything they believed due to a rational process. I mean I myself am not like that, even though truth-seeking is kind of a basic passion of mine. For example, I picked up some hobby because I randomly bumped into it. I have not really investigated if that is the optimal hobby given my life goals even though I spend considerable time and money on it. I guess I am to some degree harping on the “maximization is perilous” commentary that others have made before me, in more detail and more eloquently.
I think the modest amounts of upvotes and agree votes might be an indication that this “not being truth-seeking in all parts of my life” attitude is at least not totally infrequent in EA. Religion is just one example, I can think of many more, perhaps more relevant but it’s a bit of a minefield—again, truth-seeking can be pretty painful!
I am not super confident about all this though, I made my comments more in case what I am outlining is true, and then for people to know that they are welcome by at least some people in the EA community as long as they are truth-seeking where it matters and that areas they are not investigating deeply does not too negatively affect having the biggest possible impact we could have.
Yeah that was a bad example/analogy. Not sure if helpful but here is what GPT suggested as a better example/response, building on what I previously wrote:
”I understand your concern about over-analyzing hobbies, which indeed might not involve significant truth claims. To clarify, my point was more about the balance between being truth-seeking and pragmatic, especially in non-critical areas.
To illustrate this, consider an example from within the EA community where balancing truth-seeking and practicality is crucial: the implementation of malaria bed net distribution programs. Suppose an EA working in global health is a devout Christian and often interacts with communities where religious beliefs play a significant role. If the EA were required to frequently challenge their faith publicly within the EA community, it might alienate them and reduce their effectiveness in these communities.
This situation demonstrates that while truth-seeking is vital, it should be context-sensitive. In this case, the EA’s religious belief doesn’t hinder their professional work or the efficacy of the malaria program. Instead, their faith might help build trust with local communities, enhancing the program’s impact.
Thus, the key takeaway is that truth-seeking should be applied where it significantly impacts our goals and effectiveness. In less critical areas, like personal hobbies or certain beliefs, it might be more pragmatic to allow some flexibility. This approach helps maintain inclusivity and harnesses the diverse strengths of our community members without compromising on our core values and objectives.”
I think you might be using “truth-seeking” a bit differently here from how I and others use it, which might be underlying the disagree-votes you’re getting. In particular, I think you might be using “truth-seeking” to refer to an activity (engaging in a particular kind of discourse) rather than an attitude or value, whereas I think it’s more typically used to refer to the latter.
I think it’s very important to the EA endeavor to adopt a truth-seeking mindset about roughly everything, including (and in some cases especially) about hot-button political issues. At the same time, I think that it’s often not helpful to try to hash out those issues out loud in EA spaces, unless they’re directly relevant to cause prioritisation or the cause area under discussion.
Hi Will, thanks for the comment. I agree 100% that it is very good for people to even look at hot button topics but keep such explorations offline.
Perhaps something I should have clarified above, and in danger of being perceived as speaking on behalf of others which is not my intention (instead I am trying to think of the least harmful example here): I was thinking that if I was someone really passionate about global health and doing it right, and coming from a strong Christian background, I might feel alienated from EA if it was required of me to frequently challenge my Christian faith.
So I think I was talking in terms of an attitude or value. For the above example of a Christian EA, and using another example of an atheist or at least agnostic EA who is super truth-seeking across the board, I could see the latter using this post to come to the conclusion that the Christian EA is not really EA as that person refuses to dive deep into the epistemics of their religious belief. This is what I wanted to highlight. And personally I think the Christian EA above is super helpful even for EAs who think they are not 100% truth-seeking: They have connections to lots of other Christians who want to do good and could influence them to do even better. They also understand large swaths of global population and can be effective communicators and ensure various initiatives from Pause AI to bed nets go well when delivered to Christian populations. Or they might just be a super good alignment researcher and not care too much about knowing the truth of everything. And the diversity of thought they bring also has value.
That said, I think “global truth-seekers” are also really important to EA—I think we would be much worse off if we did not have any people who were willing to go into every single issue trying to get ground contact with truth.
If helpful, and very simplistically, I guess I am wondering which of the two alternatives below we think is ideal?
Of course, one subset of Christians or other religious believers believe that the subjects of their religious beliefs follow from (or at least accord with) their rationality. This would contrast with the position that you seem to be indicating, which I believe is called fideism, which would hold that some religious beliefs cannot be reached by rational thinking. I would be interested in seeing what portion of EAs hold their religious beliefs explicitly in violation of what they believe to be rational, but I suspect that it would be few.
In any case, I believe truthseeking is generally a good way to live for even religious people who hold certain beliefs in spite of what they take to be good reason. Ostensibly, they would simply not apply it to one set of their beliefs.
That is a good point and an untested assumption behind my hesitation to “fully endorse truth-seeking in EA”. That said, I would be surprised if all EAs, or even a majority, did everything they do and believed everything they believed due to a rational process. I mean I myself am not like that, even though truth-seeking is kind of a basic passion of mine. For example, I picked up some hobby because I randomly bumped into it. I have not really investigated if that is the optimal hobby given my life goals even though I spend considerable time and money on it. I guess I am to some degree harping on the “maximization is perilous” commentary that others have made before me, in more detail and more eloquently.
I think the modest amounts of upvotes and agree votes might be an indication that this “not being truth-seeking in all parts of my life” attitude is at least not totally infrequent in EA. Religion is just one example, I can think of many more, perhaps more relevant but it’s a bit of a minefield—again, truth-seeking can be pretty painful!
I am not super confident about all this though, I made my comments more in case what I am outlining is true, and then for people to know that they are welcome by at least some people in the EA community as long as they are truth-seeking where it matters and that areas they are not investigating deeply does not too negatively affect having the biggest possible impact we could have.
I don’t think being truth-seeking means you need to over-analyse your hobbies—most hobbies don’t really involve truth claims
Yeah that was a bad example/analogy. Not sure if helpful but here is what GPT suggested as a better example/response, building on what I previously wrote:
”I understand your concern about over-analyzing hobbies, which indeed might not involve significant truth claims. To clarify, my point was more about the balance between being truth-seeking and pragmatic, especially in non-critical areas.
To illustrate this, consider an example from within the EA community where balancing truth-seeking and practicality is crucial: the implementation of malaria bed net distribution programs. Suppose an EA working in global health is a devout Christian and often interacts with communities where religious beliefs play a significant role. If the EA were required to frequently challenge their faith publicly within the EA community, it might alienate them and reduce their effectiveness in these communities.
This situation demonstrates that while truth-seeking is vital, it should be context-sensitive. In this case, the EA’s religious belief doesn’t hinder their professional work or the efficacy of the malaria program. Instead, their faith might help build trust with local communities, enhancing the program’s impact.
Thus, the key takeaway is that truth-seeking should be applied where it significantly impacts our goals and effectiveness. In less critical areas, like personal hobbies or certain beliefs, it might be more pragmatic to allow some flexibility. This approach helps maintain inclusivity and harnesses the diverse strengths of our community members without compromising on our core values and objectives.”