Individuals who have or have previously had one-off project ideas: reveal thyselves, so we can attempt a headcount! Would you feel sufficiently more optimistic about getting your ideas implemented if donor-funded developers were potentially available that you’d be likely to propose more such ideas or otherwise contribute more if it meant they were implemented sooner/more reliably?
Yes. There are lots of ideas that I would consider exploring or doing if I knew that I could apply and have a reasonable chance of getting the needed tech support, that I would immediately rule out as infeasible at present.
As an example, right now READI has a pretty basic website that a few of us had to learn to make and maintain. It is probably costly our credibility and engagement to have such a basic website and I would really like to improve it.
At one time during the SCRUB project we were in contact with various people in health and government overseas about about helping them with their Covid-19 response (based on ongoing work we were doing (funded through one of our employers) for the Victorian Government.
Our website for that work probably severely undermined us as and we had no easy way to resolve that short of spending thousands to hire a dev (which we didn’t have time or expertise to do anyway).
Many things we could do now (for instance, analytics, tracking reads shares and downloads, presenting information on our website) are bottlenecked by our limited access to relevant tech resources.
Some other related data points:
Effective Altruism Australia lacked the resources to make desired improvements to their website for many years (to the best of my knowledge).
At one point I was volunteering to help a few EA charities and organisations with their websites. Some of those organisations told me that they had no capacity at all to improve their website. At least one (maybe more, can’t remember) didn’t even have google analytics and therefore lacked the most basic information about their audience’s behaviour and composition.
The decreased bounce conversion rates and their lack of ability to track audiences and strategies probably cost them a lot of donations.
Other staff (eg marketers, designers, and others mentioned in the previous section): do you feel like the arguments presented in this sequence generalise to your type of work, such that it would make sense for EA orgs to outsource it to an agency?
As I mentioned in my response to your first sequence post—I am very keen on the agency idea for areas like marketing, PR, datascience, statistics/research design, research and video production etc. I’d strongly consider using and even joining a EA focused agency in the future.
Thanks Peter, that’s a really helpful set of ideas. Do you know in the cases you mention why in practice they didn’t/don’t get funded to hire a contractor or agency? Eg did they apply and get rejected? Or not consider it a good use of time to apply? Were they at hoping at any given point that volunteers would be available in less time than it took to turn around a grant application? Or something else entirely?
So with READI - we are a volunteer org with no funding for tech support and limited capacity to even figure out what we need and manage a new tech project. We have ~1 hour a week to meet, then a few hours a week of time communicating and working on our research projects and/or getting funding.
Seeking funding and planning a better website would take up a big chunk of that time each week. It might be worth us paying something for that if we had an affordable and reliable option (e.g., a trusted low cost/subsidised EA tech agency).
However, it definitely seems like a risk and potential waste of time and money to try to pay a contractor. I am not even sure where would be a good place to look. I know that it can take a lot of time from my start-up days and also that it doesn’t always work out (it didn’t the last time I paid for a website).
If we had more time we could try to find a volunteer. However, they might not be useful enough to justify the time put into getting them onboarded. We had a few people sort of helping with tech things but they mostly dropped off the radar or ended up needing to focus on other things.
With EAA it was something similar I think (note that I wasn’t one of the key people so this is more speculative). There was some tech support available from volunteers but then it stopped and it was hard to determine what was needed to solve the various issues that existed and how to hire for/fund that role. (Reminds me that another issue with decentralised/volunteer tech development is that there are many different codebases/stacks used and inefficiencies in handovers, or lack of).
With the other charities, I don’t know why they didn’t hire tech support. I think that one issue is that they want to keep overheads down for marketing reasons. Another is the risk of such work. It could go bad or break something. They possible also didn’t have much headspace for innovation. I think that most of these orgs had just enough capacity to keep the charity going but not much more than that.
Thanks, those are great case studies! Given that it wasn’t worth your time to seek funding for and plan a website, would you say that that a 50-66% discount would have made the difference? (ie the total discount you would get directly from a low-bono charity, or that the movement as a whole would get from a donor-funded one)
To play Devil’s advocate, that seems like a relatively fine-grained cost-benefit analysis in a movement where a) there’s now a lot of money floating around and b) we think the best projects are multiple orders of magnitude more valuable than a typical non-EA charitable project. If there are other considerations that would make you think an EA tech agency would have made a bigger difference in practice, can you describe in your own words what they were?
would you say that that a 50-66% discount would have made the difference?
Probably not as we were unfunded and unwilling to self fund to any great extent. What would have helped would be a source of work we could reliably outsource to for free or for a 90% subsidy. I could imagine that we might self-fund up to 1000aud say, for a website/work valued at 10,000 Aud. But that’s just speculation. It’s hard to say what we might have done as we didn’t even consider paying for a website/tech support in the current landscape.
To play Devil’s advocate, that seems like a relatively fine-grained cost-benefit analysis in a movement where a) there’s now a lot of money floating around and b) we think the best projects are multiple orders of magnitude more valuable than a typical non-EA charitable project.
Can you please clarify?
If there are other considerations that would make you think an EA tech agency would have made a bigger difference in practice, can you describe in your own words what they were?
Not sure if I understand this question fully but a big one is efficiency—We have spent probably 50-100 hours using GitHub to update and maintain our current website and that was substituted for time where we could have been adding more value as a researchers etc. At EAA I spent a reasonable amount of time (100 hours or more) working with Drupal to learn how to update and manage that website. I imagine that an experienced tech person would have been many times more efficient (and happier too) if they did this work instead of us!
Probably not as we were unfunded and unwilling to self fund to any great extent. What would have helped would be a source of work we could reliably outsource to for free or for a 90% subsidy. I could imagine that we might self-fund up to 1000aud say, for a website/work valued at 10,000 Aud. But that’s just speculation. It’s hard to say what we might have done as we didn’t even consider paying for a website/tech support in the current landscape.
Why didn’t you apply for funding from EA meta or similar to hire an agency to fund the website?
Can you please clarify?
The most common pushback I got when writing this is that in a simple counterfactual, a low-bono and donor-funded agency are nearly equivalent, feedback mechanisms aside. In one case, you apply to EA meta or somesuch fund for funding to pay the agency, in the other, in the other the agency applies to a similar fund for operations costs, and then you apply to the agency for ‘free’ work—approx the same amount of money gets spent either way.
In which case, suppose a low bono agency is available. In a case like this you’d still need to apply for funding for the former and, based on the estimations in part 2, it would be 50-66% cheaper than existing for-profit agencies at most—so if that discount wouldn’t have made you a) feel the project was worth paying for out of your own pocket or b) make you optimistic enough about the prospects of getting funding to apply to eg EA meta, then the argument would be that the work you wanted done was low enough value that it wouldn’t have been a good use of the movement’s money to subsidise an agency to work do pro bono work for you.
Having made a very theoretical argument, I want to hear from someone who’s actually been in that position whether you think that counterfactual is valid, and if not, why not.
Why didn’t you apply for funding from EA meta or similar to hire an agency to fund the website?
This didn’t seem like a live opportunity (I have never heard of it happening). I don’t think we would have received any funding if we had applied. We would also have needed to cost the project, find an agency first etc.
suppose a low bono agency is available. In a case like this you’d still need to apply for funding for the former and, based on the estimations in part 2, it would be 50-66% cheaper than existing for-profit agencies at most—so if that discount wouldn’t have made you a) feel the project was worth paying for out of your own pocket or b) make you optimistic enough about the prospects of getting funding to apply to eg EA meta, then the argument would be that the work you wanted done was low enough value that it wouldn’t have been a good use of the movement’s money to subsidise an agency to work do pro bono work for you.
This model has lots of frictions, uncertainties and double handling—we need to explain the issue to the org to price the work, then apply for the funding by explaining what we want, then get back to the agency to start the work if we are approved. We probably also need to report back to the funder later on. Seems better to have have more certainty and do things more quickly.
I think we would consider paying a low-bono agency if we knew they would do a good job. Speed and certainty of outcome are very important.
Having made a very theoretical argument, I want to hear from someone who’s actually been in that position whether you think that counterfactual is valid, and if not, why not.
The free/donor funded agency option appears to be much easier and less effortful overall. I imagine that READI would be more likely to apply for that than seeking funding for a low bono org to do the work. To be clear, I am imagining that we apply for help with problem x, the funded agency reviews that request, prioritises it, and then rejects us or informs us they can help us at x time.
The free/donor funded agency approach seems to distribute responsibility more effectively as they invest time with funding and resource rather than the more time poor startup/EA org.
The challenges of nontechnical EAs are pretty trivial. Today, I could probably have saved a few hours of my time if I could get help to get analytics working on our github page (it may not be working yet either!). I don’t want to have to explain my issue to a third party and apply for funding every time I have an issue like that!
Individuals who have or have previously had one-off project ideas: reveal thyselves, so we can attempt a headcount! Would you feel sufficiently more optimistic about getting your ideas implemented if donor-funded developers were potentially available that you’d be likely to propose more such ideas or otherwise contribute more if it meant they were implemented sooner/more reliably?
Yes. There are lots of ideas that I would consider exploring or doing if I knew that I could apply and have a reasonable chance of getting the needed tech support, that I would immediately rule out as infeasible at present.
As an example, right now READI has a pretty basic website that a few of us had to learn to make and maintain. It is probably costly our credibility and engagement to have such a basic website and I would really like to improve it.
At one time during the SCRUB project we were in contact with various people in health and government overseas about about helping them with their Covid-19 response (based on ongoing work we were doing (funded through one of our employers) for the Victorian Government.
Our website for that work probably severely undermined us as and we had no easy way to resolve that short of spending thousands to hire a dev (which we didn’t have time or expertise to do anyway).
Many things we could do now (for instance, analytics, tracking reads shares and downloads, presenting information on our website) are bottlenecked by our limited access to relevant tech resources.
Some other related data points:
Effective Altruism Australia lacked the resources to make desired improvements to their website for many years (to the best of my knowledge).
At one point I was volunteering to help a few EA charities and organisations with their websites. Some of those organisations told me that they had no capacity at all to improve their website. At least one (maybe more, can’t remember) didn’t even have google analytics and therefore lacked the most basic information about their audience’s behaviour and composition.
The decreased bounce conversion rates and their lack of ability to track audiences and strategies probably cost them a lot of donations.
Other staff (eg marketers, designers, and others mentioned in the previous section): do you feel like the arguments presented in this sequence generalise to your type of work, such that it would make sense for EA orgs to outsource it to an agency?
As I mentioned in my response to your first sequence post—I am very keen on the agency idea for areas like marketing, PR, datascience, statistics/research design, research and video production etc. I’d strongly consider using and even joining a EA focused agency in the future.
Thanks Peter, that’s a really helpful set of ideas. Do you know in the cases you mention why in practice they didn’t/don’t get funded to hire a contractor or agency? Eg did they apply and get rejected? Or not consider it a good use of time to apply? Were they at hoping at any given point that volunteers would be available in less time than it took to turn around a grant application? Or something else entirely?
So with READI - we are a volunteer org with no funding for tech support and limited capacity to even figure out what we need and manage a new tech project. We have ~1 hour a week to meet, then a few hours a week of time communicating and working on our research projects and/or getting funding.
Seeking funding and planning a better website would take up a big chunk of that time each week. It might be worth us paying something for that if we had an affordable and reliable option (e.g., a trusted low cost/subsidised EA tech agency).
However, it definitely seems like a risk and potential waste of time and money to try to pay a contractor. I am not even sure where would be a good place to look. I know that it can take a lot of time from my start-up days and also that it doesn’t always work out (it didn’t the last time I paid for a website).
If we had more time we could try to find a volunteer. However, they might not be useful enough to justify the time put into getting them onboarded. We had a few people sort of helping with tech things but they mostly dropped off the radar or ended up needing to focus on other things.
With EAA it was something similar I think (note that I wasn’t one of the key people so this is more speculative). There was some tech support available from volunteers but then it stopped and it was hard to determine what was needed to solve the various issues that existed and how to hire for/fund that role. (Reminds me that another issue with decentralised/volunteer tech development is that there are many different codebases/stacks used and inefficiencies in handovers, or lack of).
With the other charities, I don’t know why they didn’t hire tech support. I think that one issue is that they want to keep overheads down for marketing reasons. Another is the risk of such work. It could go bad or break something. They possible also didn’t have much headspace for innovation. I think that most of these orgs had just enough capacity to keep the charity going but not much more than that.
Thanks, those are great case studies! Given that it wasn’t worth your time to seek funding for and plan a website, would you say that that a 50-66% discount would have made the difference? (ie the total discount you would get directly from a low-bono charity, or that the movement as a whole would get from a donor-funded one)
To play Devil’s advocate, that seems like a relatively fine-grained cost-benefit analysis in a movement where a) there’s now a lot of money floating around and b) we think the best projects are multiple orders of magnitude more valuable than a typical non-EA charitable project. If there are other considerations that would make you think an EA tech agency would have made a bigger difference in practice, can you describe in your own words what they were?
Thanks!
Probably not as we were unfunded and unwilling to self fund to any great extent. What would have helped would be a source of work we could reliably outsource to for free or for a 90% subsidy. I could imagine that we might self-fund up to 1000aud say, for a website/work valued at 10,000 Aud. But that’s just speculation. It’s hard to say what we might have done as we didn’t even consider paying for a website/tech support in the current landscape.
Can you please clarify?
Not sure if I understand this question fully but a big one is efficiency—We have spent probably 50-100 hours using GitHub to update and maintain our current website and that was substituted for time where we could have been adding more value as a researchers etc. At EAA I spent a reasonable amount of time (100 hours or more) working with Drupal to learn how to update and manage that website. I imagine that an experienced tech person would have been many times more efficient (and happier too) if they did this work instead of us!
Why didn’t you apply for funding from EA meta or similar to hire an agency to fund the website?
The most common pushback I got when writing this is that in a simple counterfactual, a low-bono and donor-funded agency are nearly equivalent, feedback mechanisms aside. In one case, you apply to EA meta or somesuch fund for funding to pay the agency, in the other, in the other the agency applies to a similar fund for operations costs, and then you apply to the agency for ‘free’ work—approx the same amount of money gets spent either way.
In which case, suppose a low bono agency is available. In a case like this you’d still need to apply for funding for the former and, based on the estimations in part 2, it would be 50-66% cheaper than existing for-profit agencies at most—so if that discount wouldn’t have made you a) feel the project was worth paying for out of your own pocket or b) make you optimistic enough about the prospects of getting funding to apply to eg EA meta, then the argument would be that the work you wanted done was low enough value that it wouldn’t have been a good use of the movement’s money to subsidise an agency to work do pro bono work for you.
Having made a very theoretical argument, I want to hear from someone who’s actually been in that position whether you think that counterfactual is valid, and if not, why not.
Some quick responses, sorry if unclear:
This didn’t seem like a live opportunity (I have never heard of it happening). I don’t think we would have received any funding if we had applied. We would also have needed to cost the project, find an agency first etc.
This model has lots of frictions, uncertainties and double handling—we need to explain the issue to the org to price the work, then apply for the funding by explaining what we want, then get back to the agency to start the work if we are approved. We probably also need to report back to the funder later on. Seems better to have have more certainty and do things more quickly.
I think we would consider paying a low-bono agency if we knew they would do a good job. Speed and certainty of outcome are very important.
The free/donor funded agency option appears to be much easier and less effortful overall. I imagine that READI would be more likely to apply for that than seeking funding for a low bono org to do the work. To be clear, I am imagining that we apply for help with problem x, the funded agency reviews that request, prioritises it, and then rejects us or informs us they can help us at x time.
The free/donor funded agency approach seems to distribute responsibility more effectively as they invest time with funding and resource rather than the more time poor startup/EA org.
The challenges of nontechnical EAs are pretty trivial. Today, I could probably have saved a few hours of my time if I could get help to get analytics working on our github page (it may not be working yet either!). I don’t want to have to explain my issue to a third party and apply for funding every time I have an issue like that!
Appreciate the insight. I imagine I will be directing people to this a lot!
Great, glad it was helpful!