Thanks for being patient. This is something that I’ve been mulling over for quite a while, and I haven’t been able to resolve it on my own, which is why I’m posting on this forum, and very much appreciate your thoughtful remarks.
“I (and many others, I gather) aren’t doing this so that more people will be born—we’re doing this so that people who will be born either way live happily.”
You’ve hit the nail on where we lose each other. In my view, whether someone is “going to exist”, is something that we have control over. If you save a life today, that person may give birth to new people and do good in their life. If you let someone die today, that person had no opportunity to have offspring or do good. If you educate someone, there are fewer people in the future. The way I see it, the people of the future “existing” is a knob that we have the power to control (in a broad sense). It’s not something that would happen “either way.”
In the same way, I see no difference between someone not existing and someone dying. In both cases, a person is absent. In one case, the person had very real connections with other people. On the other, that person would have had very real connections with other people but were not given the chance to do so. It is the same way that economists think about opportunity costs. Opportunity costs may not be real, but had you not done something, you would have done this other thing.
Regarding your aside, I think that illustrates an interesting potential solution to the dilemma (?) The purpose is not to save lives (because in your case, the world where 100% of people die is less or equally bad than 50% of people dying). This is an interesting case, and perhaps there’s a way to rephrase the original claim to accommodate it, though I’m not certain how.
“Regarding your aside, I think that illustrates an interesting potential solution to the dilemma (?) The purpose is not to save lives (because in your case, the world where 100% of people die is less or equally bad than 50% of people dying). This is an interesting case, and perhaps there’s a way to rephrase the original claim to accommodate it, though I’m not certain how.”
I must have inadequately written my parenthetical aside; perhaps I inadequately wrote everything.
The purpose is entirely to save lives. We have a world with seven billion people. If all of them died, it amount of disutility in my view would be X times seven billion, where X is the disutility from someone dying. If the world instead had fourteen billion people and seven billion of them died, the disutility would still be X times seven billion. The human race existing doesn’t matter to me, only the humans. If no one had any kids and this generation was the last one, I don’t think that would be a bad thing.
This isn’t something which all EAs think (some of them value “humanity” as well as the humans), though it does seem to be a view over represented by people who responded to this thread.
“The way I see it, the people of the future ‘existing’ is a knob that we have the power to control (in a broad sense). It’s not something that would happen ‘either way.’”
I know a man who plans to have a child the traditional way. We’ve spoken about the topic and I’ve told him my views; there’s not terribly much more I could do. I have very little power over whether or not that child will exist—none whatsoever, in any practical way.
That child doesn’t exist yet—there’s some chance they never will. I want that child to have a happy life, and to not die unless they want to. When that entity becomes existent, the odds are very good I’ll be personally involved in said entity’s happiness; I’ll be a friend of the family. Certainly, if twelve years in the child fell in a river and started to drown, I’d muddy my jacket to save them.
But I wouldn’t lift a finger to create them. Do I explain myself?
Something analogous could be said about all the humans who do not exist, but will. We have control over the “existence knob” in such a broad sense that there’s little point bringing it up at all. So, living in a world where people exist, and will continue to do so, it seems like the most important thing is to keep them alive.
Valuing the people who exist is a very different thing from valuing people existing. EA is not just about population growth—it isn’t about population growth at all.
Hi Lumpyproletariat,
Thanks for being patient. This is something that I’ve been mulling over for quite a while, and I haven’t been able to resolve it on my own, which is why I’m posting on this forum, and very much appreciate your thoughtful remarks.
You’ve hit the nail on where we lose each other. In my view, whether someone is “going to exist”, is something that we have control over. If you save a life today, that person may give birth to new people and do good in their life. If you let someone die today, that person had no opportunity to have offspring or do good. If you educate someone, there are fewer people in the future. The way I see it, the people of the future “existing” is a knob that we have the power to control (in a broad sense). It’s not something that would happen “either way.”
In the same way, I see no difference between someone not existing and someone dying. In both cases, a person is absent. In one case, the person had very real connections with other people. On the other, that person would have had very real connections with other people but were not given the chance to do so. It is the same way that economists think about opportunity costs. Opportunity costs may not be real, but had you not done something, you would have done this other thing.
Regarding your aside, I think that illustrates an interesting potential solution to the dilemma (?) The purpose is not to save lives (because in your case, the world where 100% of people die is less or equally bad than 50% of people dying). This is an interesting case, and perhaps there’s a way to rephrase the original claim to accommodate it, though I’m not certain how.
“Regarding your aside, I think that illustrates an interesting potential solution to the dilemma (?) The purpose is not to save lives (because in your case, the world where 100% of people die is less or equally bad than 50% of people dying). This is an interesting case, and perhaps there’s a way to rephrase the original claim to accommodate it, though I’m not certain how.”
I must have inadequately written my parenthetical aside; perhaps I inadequately wrote everything.
The purpose is entirely to save lives. We have a world with seven billion people. If all of them died, it amount of disutility in my view would be X times seven billion, where X is the disutility from someone dying. If the world instead had fourteen billion people and seven billion of them died, the disutility would still be X times seven billion. The human race existing doesn’t matter to me, only the humans. If no one had any kids and this generation was the last one, I don’t think that would be a bad thing.
This isn’t something which all EAs think (some of them value “humanity” as well as the humans), though it does seem to be a view over represented by people who responded to this thread.
“The way I see it, the people of the future ‘existing’ is a knob that we have the power to control (in a broad sense). It’s not something that would happen ‘either way.’”
I know a man who plans to have a child the traditional way. We’ve spoken about the topic and I’ve told him my views; there’s not terribly much more I could do. I have very little power over whether or not that child will exist—none whatsoever, in any practical way.
That child doesn’t exist yet—there’s some chance they never will. I want that child to have a happy life, and to not die unless they want to. When that entity becomes existent, the odds are very good I’ll be personally involved in said entity’s happiness; I’ll be a friend of the family. Certainly, if twelve years in the child fell in a river and started to drown, I’d muddy my jacket to save them.
But I wouldn’t lift a finger to create them. Do I explain myself?
Something analogous could be said about all the humans who do not exist, but will. We have control over the “existence knob” in such a broad sense that there’s little point bringing it up at all. So, living in a world where people exist, and will continue to do so, it seems like the most important thing is to keep them alive.
Valuing the people who exist is a very different thing from valuing people existing. EA is not just about population growth—it isn’t about population growth at all.