I respectfully disagree. Firstly, that is by no means the last word on infinite ethics (see papers by Manheim and Sandberg, and a more recent paper out of the Global Priorities Institute). Prematurely abandoning utilitarianism because of infinites is a bit like (obviously the analogy is not perfect) abandoning the general theory of relativity because it can’t deal with infinities.
Secondly, we should act as if we are in a finite world: it would be seen as terribly callous of someone not to have relieved the suffering of others if it turned out we were in a finite universe all along. It is telling that virtually no one has substantively changed their actions as a result of infinite ethics. This is sensible and prudent.
Thirdly, in an infinite world, we should understand that utilitarianism is not about maximising some abstract utility function or number in the sky, but about improving the conscious experiences of sentient beings. Infinities don’t change the fact that I can reduce the suffering of the person in front of me, or the sentient being on the other side of the world, or the fact that this is good for them. And there are good practical, utilitarian reasons not to spend one’s time focusing on other potential worlds.
Thank you for engaging. Respectfully, however, I’m not compelled by your response.
Prematurely abandoning utilitarianism because of infinites is a bit like [...].
I’m not saying that we should prematurely abandon utilitarianism (though perhaps I did not make this clear in my above comment). I’m saying that we do not have an “ultimate argument” for utilitarianism at present, and that there’s a good chance that further reflection on known unknowns such as infinite ethics will reveal that our current conception of utilitarianism—in so far as we’re putting it forward as a “correct moral theory” candidate—is non-trivially flawed.
Secondly, we should act as if we are in a finite world [...] This is sensible and prudent.
I disagree. I think we should act to do the most good, and this may involve, for example, evidentially cooperating with other civilizations across the potentially infinite universe/multiverse. Your sentence “it would be seen as terribly callous of someone not to have relieved the suffering of others if it turned out we were in a finite universe all along” seems to me to be claiming that we should abandon expected value calculus (or that we should set our credence on the universe/multiverse being infinite to zero, notwithstanding the possibility that we could reduce suffering by a greater amount by having and acting on a best guess credence), which I view as incorrect.
Thirdly, [...] Infinities don’t change the fact that I can reduce the suffering of the person in front of me, or the sentient being on the other side of the world
I believe this claim falls foul of the Pareto improvement plus agent-neutrality impossibility result in infinite ethics, once you try to decide on whose suffering to reduce. (Another objection some—e.g., Bostrom—might make is that if there is infinite total suffering, then reducing suffering by a finite amount does nothing to reduce total suffering. But I’m personally less convinced by this flavor of objection.)
Thanks for your response. It seems we disagree on much less than I had initially assumed. My response was mostly intended for someone who has prematurely become a nihilist (as apparently happened to one of Carlsmith’s friends), whereas you remain committed to doing the most good. And I was mainly addressing the last flavour of objection you mention.
I respectfully disagree. Firstly, that is by no means the last word on infinite ethics (see papers by Manheim and Sandberg, and a more recent paper out of the Global Priorities Institute). Prematurely abandoning utilitarianism because of infinites is a bit like (obviously the analogy is not perfect) abandoning the general theory of relativity because it can’t deal with infinities.
Secondly, we should act as if we are in a finite world: it would be seen as terribly callous of someone not to have relieved the suffering of others if it turned out we were in a finite universe all along. It is telling that virtually no one has substantively changed their actions as a result of infinite ethics. This is sensible and prudent.
Thirdly, in an infinite world, we should understand that utilitarianism is not about maximising some abstract utility function or number in the sky, but about improving the conscious experiences of sentient beings. Infinities don’t change the fact that I can reduce the suffering of the person in front of me, or the sentient being on the other side of the world, or the fact that this is good for them. And there are good practical, utilitarian reasons not to spend one’s time focusing on other potential worlds.
Thank you for engaging. Respectfully, however, I’m not compelled by your response.
I’m not saying that we should prematurely abandon utilitarianism (though perhaps I did not make this clear in my above comment). I’m saying that we do not have an “ultimate argument” for utilitarianism at present, and that there’s a good chance that further reflection on known unknowns such as infinite ethics will reveal that our current conception of utilitarianism—in so far as we’re putting it forward as a “correct moral theory” candidate—is non-trivially flawed.
I disagree. I think we should act to do the most good, and this may involve, for example, evidentially cooperating with other civilizations across the potentially infinite universe/multiverse. Your sentence “it would be seen as terribly callous of someone not to have relieved the suffering of others if it turned out we were in a finite universe all along” seems to me to be claiming that we should abandon expected value calculus (or that we should set our credence on the universe/multiverse being infinite to zero, notwithstanding the possibility that we could reduce suffering by a greater amount by having and acting on a best guess credence), which I view as incorrect.
I believe this claim falls foul of the Pareto improvement plus agent-neutrality impossibility result in infinite ethics, once you try to decide on whose suffering to reduce. (Another objection some—e.g., Bostrom—might make is that if there is infinite total suffering, then reducing suffering by a finite amount does nothing to reduce total suffering. But I’m personally less convinced by this flavor of objection.)
Thanks for your response. It seems we disagree on much less than I had initially assumed. My response was mostly intended for someone who has prematurely become a nihilist (as apparently happened to one of Carlsmith’s friends), whereas you remain committed to doing the most good. And I was mainly addressing the last flavour of objection you mention.