Thanks a lot. This was a very convincing and valuable take-down of Eliezer. I tend to think, like you, that Eliezer’s way of reasoning from first principles has done real damage to epistemic practices in EA circles. Just try to follow the actual evidence, for rationality’s sake. It isn’t more complicated than that.
But all three parts of this “takedown” are about questions of philosophy / metaphysics? How do you suggest that I “follow the actual evidence” and avoid “first principles reasoning” when we are trying to learn about the nature of consciousness or the optimal way to make decisions??
I realize that my comment was somewhat poorly worded. I do not mean that you can follow the evidence in an absolute and empirical sense when forming a belief about the nature of consciousness. What you can do, however, and which Eliezer doesn’t do, is to pay attention to what the philosophers who spend their lives working on this question are saying, and take their arguments seriously. The first principle approach is kind of “I have an idea about consciousness which I think is right so I will not spend too much time looking at what actual philosophers are saying”.
(I did a master’s degree in philosophy before turning to a career in social science, so at least I know enough about contemporary analytic philosophy to know what I don’t know)
My comment “just follow the actual evidence” was not regarding consciousness or metaphysics, but regarding broader epistemic tendencies in the EA community. This tendency is very much Eliezer-ish in style: An idea that one knows best, because one is smart. If one has a set of “priors” one thinks are reasonably well-founded one doesn’t need to look too much at empirical evidence, arguments among researchers or best practices in relevant communities outside of EA.
A case in point that comes to mind was some time ago when EAs debated whether it is a good idea that close colleagues in EA orgs have sex with each other. Some people pointed out that this is broadly frowned upon in most high-risk or high-responsibility work settings. Eliezer and other EAs thought they knew better, because, hey—first principles and we know ethics and we are smart! So the question then becomes: who should we trust on this, Eliezer and some young EAs in their early twenties or thirties, or high-powered financial firms and intelligence agencies who have fine-tuned their organizational practices over decades? Hm, tough one.
There are obviously huge differences between metaphysics, empirical evidence on various social issues, and sexual ethics in organizations. But the similarity is the first principles style of thought that is common in EA: we have good priors so no need to listen too much to outsiders.
I broadly agree with what the authors of “Doing EA better” wrote in their essay on this btw. They expressed similar points in a better and more precise way.
Given that Eliezer has had such a huge influence on epistemic practices in EA I therefore think it is valuable with takedowns like this. Eliezer is not that smart, actually, and his style of thinking has led EAs astray epistemically.
Thanks a lot. This was a very convincing and valuable take-down of Eliezer. I tend to think, like you, that Eliezer’s way of reasoning from first principles has done real damage to epistemic practices in EA circles. Just try to follow the actual evidence, for rationality’s sake. It isn’t more complicated than that.
But all three parts of this “takedown” are about questions of philosophy / metaphysics? How do you suggest that I “follow the actual evidence” and avoid “first principles reasoning” when we are trying to learn about the nature of consciousness or the optimal way to make decisions??
I realize that my comment was somewhat poorly worded. I do not mean that you can follow the evidence in an absolute and empirical sense when forming a belief about the nature of consciousness. What you can do, however, and which Eliezer doesn’t do, is to pay attention to what the philosophers who spend their lives working on this question are saying, and take their arguments seriously. The first principle approach is kind of “I have an idea about consciousness which I think is right so I will not spend too much time looking at what actual philosophers are saying”.
(I did a master’s degree in philosophy before turning to a career in social science, so at least I know enough about contemporary analytic philosophy to know what I don’t know)
My comment “just follow the actual evidence” was not regarding consciousness or metaphysics, but regarding broader epistemic tendencies in the EA community. This tendency is very much Eliezer-ish in style: An idea that one knows best, because one is smart. If one has a set of “priors” one thinks are reasonably well-founded one doesn’t need to look too much at empirical evidence, arguments among researchers or best practices in relevant communities outside of EA.
A case in point that comes to mind was some time ago when EAs debated whether it is a good idea that close colleagues in EA orgs have sex with each other. Some people pointed out that this is broadly frowned upon in most high-risk or high-responsibility work settings. Eliezer and other EAs thought they knew better, because, hey—first principles and we know ethics and we are smart! So the question then becomes: who should we trust on this, Eliezer and some young EAs in their early twenties or thirties, or high-powered financial firms and intelligence agencies who have fine-tuned their organizational practices over decades? Hm, tough one.
There are obviously huge differences between metaphysics, empirical evidence on various social issues, and sexual ethics in organizations. But the similarity is the first principles style of thought that is common in EA: we have good priors so no need to listen too much to outsiders.
I broadly agree with what the authors of “Doing EA better” wrote in their essay on this btw. They expressed similar points in a better and more precise way.
Given that Eliezer has had such a huge influence on epistemic practices in EA I therefore think it is valuable with takedowns like this. Eliezer is not that smart, actually, and his style of thinking has led EAs astray epistemically.