Aptdell—You mention ‘Far-right ideas have created enormous suffering over the past few centuries.’ Often true.
But also true of far-left ideas (including the Blank Slate doctrine that all individuals must have exactly equal abilities, preferences, & values, and any empirical evidence challenging this doctrine must be instantly slandered). Examples include every ‘idealistic’ communist regime that degenerated into a totalitarian nightmare, internal genocide, & surveillance state.
IMHO, it’s is NOT useful to fall into the usual left/right partisan trap of trying to assess the empirical truth of claims about human nature by trying to tally up the relative historical harms that allegedly resulted, usually second- or third-hand, from holding certain views.
But also true of far-left ideas (including the Blank Slate doctrine that all individuals must have exactly equal abilities, preferences, & values, and any empirical evidence challenging this doctrine must be instantly slandered). Examples include every ‘idealistic’ communist regime that degenerated into a totalitarian nightmare, internal genocide, & surveillance state.
I’m not sure this is true.
I just finished reading a ~170 page history of the Russian Revolution (covering through the late 1930s, including forced collectivization and the Great Purges), and I didn’t get the impression Blank Slate doctrine was an important cause of Soviet horrors. (I don’t recall it being mentioned at all, and it doesn’t appear in the book’s index.)
While researching this comment, I read some of this pdf, and again, I don’t see any discussion of Blank Slate doctrine. (There are good sections on the psychology of socialism starting on PDF page 300 -- the “Intuitive anti-capitalism” and “Gary Lineker fallacy” chapters.)
I’m also not sure it is relevant.
Supposing communist horrors are due to Blank Slate doctrine, perhaps Blank Slate doctrine is also “infohazardous if true”. I don’t think that affects my original points.
IMHO, it’s is NOT useful to fall into the usual left/right partisan trap of trying to assess the empirical truth of claims about human nature by trying to tally up the relative historical harms that allegedly resulted, usually second- or third-hand, from holding certain views.
I’m not doing that. I don’t think historical harms tell us whether a claim is true, just whether it is an infohazard if true (or “infohazard if believed” really—a meme can be both false and harmful!)
It was confusing writing, and I’m surprised Miller didn’t bring this up in his reply, but my interpretation is that the two aren’t actually connected except by loose ideological affiliation.
Blank Slate is mentioned as the “far-left” counterpoint to Bostrom’s theory as the topic of discussion. It is, AFAIK, a considerably younger “theory” than communism and is not related to communism’s failures.
The example of communism is brought up because you only call out “far-right ideas” causing enormous suffering, while ignoring that “far-left” ideas have also caused enormous suffering. Communism is the last century’s far-left failure mode and horror show; funny that people so often forget about all that.
Had you left out the partisan phrasing, I don’t think Miller would’ve taken any issue with your post, and I would’ve found it a stronger post as well. EA doesn’t require promotion of infohazards, and there’s no reason to implicitly suggest that infohazards can only come from one side of the spectrum.
Aptdell—not every historian is tuned into the role of explicit or tacit Blank Slate thinking in political ideologies. Again, I’d recommend Pinker (2001) to get that attunement.
Once you see the harms caused by Blank Slate doctrine—like once you see the harms caused by factory farming—you can’t un-see them. But not everyone is willing to confront those horrors.
The problem with Blank Slate doctrine (and many doctrines) isn’t that it’s ‘infohazardous if true’, but as you say, it’s more like ‘infohazardous if believed’—since it can be both false and harmful.
What fraction of the harms from communism do you attribute to Blank Slate thinking?
I assume you consider Blank Slate doctrine false. Do you believe communism would’ve worked out in a world where it was true? (My view is that most or all of the problems with communism would remain.)
I assume you consider Blank Slate doctrine false. Do you believe communism would’ve worked out in a world where it was true? (My view is that most or all of the problems with communism would remain.)
Yeah, this. The real issues with communism ultimately come down to ignoring thermodynamics exists. Once you accept that idea, a lot of other false ideas from communism starts to make more sense.
“the Blank Slate doctrine that all individuals must have exactly equal abilities, preferences, & values, and any empirical evidence challenging this doctrine must be instantly slandered)”
But when I look up Blank Slate doctrine on Google—I find nothing remotely related to this claim. Instead I see a lot of something like this:
“According to blank slate theory, the mind is completely blank at birth. From there, education, environment, and experiences – which are external, as well as material and/or immaterial – shape the child’s process of development.”
Also it’s not clear to me what you mean by “far-left”—do you have more specific labels in mind? I consider myself fairly left-wing but have never heard of this doctrine, and highly doubt that my even more lefty friends would endorse anything like your claim above.
Examples include every ‘idealistic’ communist regime that degenerated into a totalitarian nightmare, internal genocide, & surveillance state.
In this, you’re only considering far-left regimes that are highly state-controlled, rather than both libertarian and left-wing societies (e.g. anarchistic). If you look for these examples, you might actually find things are going pretty well internally (e.g. Zapatistas or Rojava) and that these societies don’t seek to eradicate sub-groups of a population—which is pretty uniform for far-right ideologies.
trying to tally up the relative historical harms that allegedly resulted, usually second- or third-hand, from holding certain views [emphasis mine].
Can you clarify what you mean here? I’m trying to be charitable but seems like you’re trying to cast doubt on the fact that far-right ideologies have caused harm to people, or diminish the harm that has been caused. Would appreciate you specifying exactly what you meant as this could easily be interpreted as this pretty reprehensible view.
James—you’re giving a very uncharitable interpretation that sounds politically motivated.
I explicitly said that it’s ‘often true’ that ‘far-right ideas have created enormous suffering’. In what sense was that ‘trying to cast doubt’ or ‘diminish the harm’?
Then I argued that far-left ideas have also created enormous suffering.
We can dispute what % of far-left nations become highly state-controlled such that they have the centralized capacity for totalitarian oppression. My estimate might be considerably higher than your estimate. I don’t see many examples of truly libertarian or anarchistic societies that last more than 10 years, or that involve more than 10 million people. But such disputes would get us into precisely the kinds of pointless partisan squabbling that EA tries (rightly) to avoid.
If you’d like to learn more about the Blank Slate doctrine, and its many harmful effects over the last couple of centuries, I’d highly recommend the classic Steven Pinker book The Blank Slate (2001).
Could you clarify your last paragraph I quoted then? Im genuinely unsure why you used the word “allegedly”, if you do believe the far-right ideas have causes large amounts of harm?
I also wasn’t clear on what you meant by second or third-hand in this context, so clarifying that would also help me understand your position better.
James—I don’t get the sense that you’re arguing in good faith, but are looking for ‘gotcha’ quotes that you can share out of context. Sorry, I’m not interested in playing that game.
Aptdell—You mention ‘Far-right ideas have created enormous suffering over the past few centuries.’ Often true.
But also true of far-left ideas (including the Blank Slate doctrine that all individuals must have exactly equal abilities, preferences, & values, and any empirical evidence challenging this doctrine must be instantly slandered). Examples include every ‘idealistic’ communist regime that degenerated into a totalitarian nightmare, internal genocide, & surveillance state.
IMHO, it’s is NOT useful to fall into the usual left/right partisan trap of trying to assess the empirical truth of claims about human nature by trying to tally up the relative historical harms that allegedly resulted, usually second- or third-hand, from holding certain views.
I’m not sure this is true.
I just finished reading a ~170 page history of the Russian Revolution (covering through the late 1930s, including forced collectivization and the Great Purges), and I didn’t get the impression Blank Slate doctrine was an important cause of Soviet horrors. (I don’t recall it being mentioned at all, and it doesn’t appear in the book’s index.)
While researching this comment, I read some of this pdf, and again, I don’t see any discussion of Blank Slate doctrine. (There are good sections on the psychology of socialism starting on PDF page 300 -- the “Intuitive anti-capitalism” and “Gary Lineker fallacy” chapters.)
I’m also not sure it is relevant.
Supposing communist horrors are due to Blank Slate doctrine, perhaps Blank Slate doctrine is also “infohazardous if true”. I don’t think that affects my original points.
I’m not doing that. I don’t think historical harms tell us whether a claim is true, just whether it is an infohazard if true (or “infohazard if believed” really—a meme can be both false and harmful!)
It was confusing writing, and I’m surprised Miller didn’t bring this up in his reply, but my interpretation is that the two aren’t actually connected except by loose ideological affiliation.
Blank Slate is mentioned as the “far-left” counterpoint to Bostrom’s theory as the topic of discussion. It is, AFAIK, a considerably younger “theory” than communism and is not related to communism’s failures.
The example of communism is brought up because you only call out “far-right ideas” causing enormous suffering, while ignoring that “far-left” ideas have also caused enormous suffering. Communism is the last century’s far-left failure mode and horror show; funny that people so often forget about all that.
Had you left out the partisan phrasing, I don’t think Miller would’ve taken any issue with your post, and I would’ve found it a stronger post as well. EA doesn’t require promotion of infohazards, and there’s no reason to implicitly suggest that infohazards can only come from one side of the spectrum.
Aptdell—not every historian is tuned into the role of explicit or tacit Blank Slate thinking in political ideologies. Again, I’d recommend Pinker (2001) to get that attunement.
Once you see the harms caused by Blank Slate doctrine—like once you see the harms caused by factory farming—you can’t un-see them. But not everyone is willing to confront those horrors.
The problem with Blank Slate doctrine (and many doctrines) isn’t that it’s ‘infohazardous if true’, but as you say, it’s more like ‘infohazardous if believed’—since it can be both false and harmful.
What fraction of the harms from communism do you attribute to Blank Slate thinking?
I assume you consider Blank Slate doctrine false. Do you believe communism would’ve worked out in a world where it was true? (My view is that most or all of the problems with communism would remain.)
Yeah, this. The real issues with communism ultimately come down to ignoring thermodynamics exists. Once you accept that idea, a lot of other false ideas from communism starts to make more sense.
I’m confused by this—you say:
But when I look up Blank Slate doctrine on Google—I find nothing remotely related to this claim. Instead I see a lot of something like this:
Also it’s not clear to me what you mean by “far-left”—do you have more specific labels in mind? I consider myself fairly left-wing but have never heard of this doctrine, and highly doubt that my even more lefty friends would endorse anything like your claim above.
In this, you’re only considering far-left regimes that are highly state-controlled, rather than both libertarian and left-wing societies (e.g. anarchistic). If you look for these examples, you might actually find things are going pretty well internally (e.g. Zapatistas or Rojava) and that these societies don’t seek to eradicate sub-groups of a population—which is pretty uniform for far-right ideologies.
Can you clarify what you mean here? I’m trying to be charitable but seems like you’re trying to cast doubt on the fact that far-right ideologies have caused harm to people, or diminish the harm that has been caused. Would appreciate you specifying exactly what you meant as this could easily be interpreted as this pretty reprehensible view.
James—you’re giving a very uncharitable interpretation that sounds politically motivated.
I explicitly said that it’s ‘often true’ that ‘far-right ideas have created enormous suffering’. In what sense was that ‘trying to cast doubt’ or ‘diminish the harm’?
Then I argued that far-left ideas have also created enormous suffering.
We can dispute what % of far-left nations become highly state-controlled such that they have the centralized capacity for totalitarian oppression. My estimate might be considerably higher than your estimate. I don’t see many examples of truly libertarian or anarchistic societies that last more than 10 years, or that involve more than 10 million people. But such disputes would get us into precisely the kinds of pointless partisan squabbling that EA tries (rightly) to avoid.
If you’d like to learn more about the Blank Slate doctrine, and its many harmful effects over the last couple of centuries, I’d highly recommend the classic Steven Pinker book The Blank Slate (2001).
Could you clarify your last paragraph I quoted then? Im genuinely unsure why you used the word “allegedly”, if you do believe the far-right ideas have causes large amounts of harm?
I also wasn’t clear on what you meant by second or third-hand in this context, so clarifying that would also help me understand your position better.
James—I don’t get the sense that you’re arguing in good faith, but are looking for ‘gotcha’ quotes that you can share out of context. Sorry, I’m not interested in playing that game.