Where does this idea come from Elizabeth? From my experience (n=10) this argument is incorrect. I know a bunch of people who work in these “badly” paying jobs you talk of who defy your criteria, they don’t have their bills paid for by a rough parent—instead they are content with their work and accept a form of “salary sacrifice” mindset even if they wouldn’t phrase it in those EA terms.
EA doesn’t have a monopoly on altruism, there are plenty of folks out there living simply and working for altruistic causes they believe in even thought it doesn’t pay well and they could be earning way more elsewhere., outside of conventional market forces.
The sense I get reading this is that you feel I’ve insulted your friends, who have made a big sacrifice to do impactful work. That wasn’t my intention and I’m sorry it came across that way. From my perspective, I am respecting the work people do by suggesting they be paid decently.
First, let me take my own advice and specify what I mean by decently: I think people should be able to have kids, have a sub-30 minute commute, live in conditions they don’t find painful (people only live with housemates if they like it, not physically dangerous, outdoor space if they need that to feel good. Any of these may come at at trade off with the others, probably no one gets all of them, but you shouldn’t be starting out from a position where it’s impossible to get reasonable needs met), save for retirement, have cheap vacations, have reasonably priced hobbies, pay their student loans, and maintain their health (meaning both things like healthcare, and things like good food and exercise). If they want to own their home, they shouldn’t be too many years behind their peers in being able to do so.
I think it is both disrespectful to the workers and harmful to the work to say that people don’t deserve these things, or should be willing to sacrifice it for the greater good. Why on earth put the pressure on them to accept less[1], and not on high-earners to give more? This goes double for orgs that require elite degrees or designer clothes: if you want those class signals, pay for them.
Hey Elizabeth—just to clarify I don’t think you’ve insulted my friends at all don’t worry about that—I just disagreed from my experience at least that was the situation with most NGO workers like you claimed. I get that you are trying to respect people by pushing for them to be paid more it’s all good.
As a small note, I don’t think they have made a “big sacrifice” at all, most wouldn’t say they have made any sacrifice at all. They have traded earning money (which might mean less to them than for other people anyway) for a satisfying job while living a (relatively) simple lifestyle which they believe is healthy for themselves and the planet. Personally I don’t consider this a sacrifice either, just living your best life!
I’m going to leave it here for now (not in a bad way at all) because I suspect our underlying worldviews differ to such a degree here that it may be hard to debate these surface salary and lifestyle issues without first probing at deeper underlying assumptions here about happiness, equality, “deserving” etc., which would take a deeper and longer discussion that might be tricky on a forum back and forth
Not saying I’m not up for discussing these things in general though!
Where does this idea come from Elizabeth? From my experience (n=10) this argument is incorrect. I know a bunch of people who work in these “badly” paying jobs you talk of who defy your criteria, they don’t have their bills paid for by a rough parent—instead they are content with their work and accept a form of “salary sacrifice” mindset even if they wouldn’t phrase it in those EA terms.
EA doesn’t have a monopoly on altruism, there are plenty of folks out there living simply and working for altruistic causes they believe in even thought it doesn’t pay well and they could be earning way more elsewhere., outside of conventional market forces.
The sense I get reading this is that you feel I’ve insulted your friends, who have made a big sacrifice to do impactful work. That wasn’t my intention and I’m sorry it came across that way. From my perspective, I am respecting the work people do by suggesting they be paid decently.
First, let me take my own advice and specify what I mean by decently: I think people should be able to have kids, have a sub-30 minute commute, live in conditions they don’t find painful (people only live with housemates if they like it, not physically dangerous, outdoor space if they need that to feel good. Any of these may come at at trade off with the others, probably no one gets all of them, but you shouldn’t be starting out from a position where it’s impossible to get reasonable needs met), save for retirement, have cheap vacations, have reasonably priced hobbies, pay their student loans, and maintain their health (meaning both things like healthcare, and things like good food and exercise). If they want to own their home, they shouldn’t be too many years behind their peers in being able to do so.
I think it is both disrespectful to the workers and harmful to the work to say that people don’t deserve these things, or should be willing to sacrifice it for the greater good. Why on earth put the pressure on them to accept less[1], and not on high-earners to give more? This goes double for orgs that require elite degrees or designer clothes: if you want those class signals, pay for them.
There’s an argument here that low payment screens for mission alignment. I think this effect is real, but is insignificant at the level I’ve laid out.
Hey Elizabeth—just to clarify I don’t think you’ve insulted my friends at all don’t worry about that—I just disagreed from my experience at least that was the situation with most NGO workers like you claimed. I get that you are trying to respect people by pushing for them to be paid more it’s all good.
As a small note, I don’t think they have made a “big sacrifice” at all, most wouldn’t say they have made any sacrifice at all. They have traded earning money (which might mean less to them than for other people anyway) for a satisfying job while living a (relatively) simple lifestyle which they believe is healthy for themselves and the planet. Personally I don’t consider this a sacrifice either, just living your best life!
I’m going to leave it here for now (not in a bad way at all) because I suspect our underlying worldviews differ to such a degree here that it may be hard to debate these surface salary and lifestyle issues without first probing at deeper underlying assumptions here about happiness, equality, “deserving” etc., which would take a deeper and longer discussion that might be tricky on a forum back and forth
Not saying I’m not up for discussing these things in general though!