OP posted this question, worded slightly differently, on Facebook as well. I answered there, and they asked me to repost here.
[TLDR: I don’t think that anyone can give you the examples relevant for you. You need to find and speak to the relevant people, outside of EA as well. It is very doable, but there are also workarounds if you can’t decide right now. Action creates clarity.]
I think 80K is actually saying it is better for most people to do direct work (including but not limited to neglected roles at EA orgs) than ETG. So don’t just consider EAO vs ETG. Direct work most likely will /not/ be at an EA org, but would be within a field important to a top EA cause area.
The preference for roles outside of EA makes sense to me, because, while an EA org is likely to find a few good top candidates they consider value-aligned, acting in the wider world using EA principles is a much more reliable (and even stronger) counterfactual. The counterfactual hire at a non-EA business/org/foundation is unlikely to operate with EA in mind.
This is similar to how earning to give is more of a reliable counterfactual than working at an EA org, in that you are almost certainly adding 100% extra money in the pot—the candidate who would have gotten your high-paying job would almost certainly not have donated to an effective charity.
In the end, though, the path for you depends on a lot. You must consider your personal fit and your EA comparative advantage. It also depends on how you expect your favored cause areas, funding, and EA as a movement to evolve. I recommend brain dumping and drafting out as much as you can regarding those 5 things to clarify expectations and cruxes! If you can find cruxes, then you can investigate with expert interviews. Reach out to individuals, not orgs.
Regarding direct work options, reach out to individuals in roles that you could see yourself in (within or outside of an EA org). Even if you are stuck with half a dozen possible roles, that is narrowed down enough that you can ask people in those roles:
-If they feel they are making an impact
-What other options they were deciding between and why they chose what they did
-Where they think the field will go and what will it need
-If they think you would be a good fit.
Now you can compare ETG to what you learned about direct work. You can interview people earning to give in the field you’d work within and people related to philanthropy in the space you’d be donating to. That could look like:
-Fundraisers for an org you love
-Grantmakers in the space
-Relevant foundation researchers, coordinators, and others
Then see if they expect extra annual donations of A-B to be better/worse than direct work of X, Y, or Z.
If you need to further clarify ETG advantage, you can speak to hiring managers or heads of people at EA or non-EA places you’d be excited to work at. Ask them how much better their best candidate tends to be than their second-best candidate.
On the whole, informational interviews are priceless.
You can find all these people using this method or by asking others if they know someone who is doing a certain role.
Here is a recent forum post on how to prepare for informational interviews (keep in mind you might want to be more formal toward non-EAs). Don’t forget to say thanks and cement the bond afterward. If you can help the person in any small way, you should.
And here are twoblurbs from 80k encouraging informational interviews and other types of exploration.
So, long story short, you will need to find those people, examples, and evidence that are relevant to you. I get that it is really not easy… I’m in the middle of it too. But just keep getting things down on paper and things will start to become clearer. Take it bit by bit, and try to get more (not necessarily complete) clarity on one aspect per day.
Also, you don’t have to have your path figured out now. If you can narrow it down to 2-3 options, see what next step you could take that would be relevant to both/all paths. If you are at the exact branching point today, then try out a role for a year in a way that should give you pretty good career capital for the other option(s). Then switch to try out another role in a year’s time if it still is not clear. Most likely, a couple of key cruxes will arise while you work.
Action creates clarity, so don’t worry about getting things perfect for now. You actually just need to learn enough to take your immediate next step with confidence.
[TLDR: I don’t think that anyone can give you the examples relevant
for you.
I don’t need examples “relevant to me”. I just wanted to know what
sort of impact people are making say in Open Phil CE or other EAs
considering relevant factors such as replaceability in fields like GR,
AI SSP, and management positions. Sorry that was not clear.
I think 80K is actually saying it is better for most people to do
direct work (including but not limited to neglected roles at EA orgs)
than ETG.
This is a claim what 80khours makes. Do you have ONE example for this
claim?
The preference for roles outside of EA makes sense to me, because,
while an EA org is likely to find a few good top candidates they
consider value-aligned, acting in the wider world using EA principles
is a much more reliable (and even stronger) counterfactual.
This is similar to how earning to give is more of a reliable
counterfactual than working at an EA org, in that you are almost
certainly adding 100% extra money in the pot—the candidate who would
have gotten your high-paying job would almost certainly not have
donated to an effective charity.
In the end, though, the path for you depends on a lot. You must
consider your personal fit and your EA comparative advantage. It also
depends on how you expect your favored cause areas, funding, and EA as
a movement to evolve. I recommend brain dumping and drafting out as
much as you can regarding those 5 things to clarify expectations and
cruxes! If you can find cruxes, then you can investigate with expert
interviews. Reach out to individuals, not orgs.
It looks like “career advice” to me. What I am asking seems to be
different. Evidence for claims “working at EA org is better than ETG
(for most people)” based on NOW. That’s all.
I don’t know what you mean with cruxes. I guess you mean things that
are stopping you from going further. The QUESTION posted is what I
wanted more info about. But sadly NO ONE seems to be able answer it.
Regarding direct work options, reach out to individuals in roles that
you could see yourself in (within or outside of an EA org). Even if
you are stuck with half a dozen possible roles, that is narrowed down
enough that you can ask people in those roles:
I reached out to several orgs and people regarding the question
above. But most of them aren’t able to provide me any useful info such
as amount of dollars moved or replaceability. The only people that
answered me are Peter Hurford and Jon Behar. I also wanted to get some
info on the fully longtermism projects but I have 0 info.
Maybe I check with Aaron Gertler on how to go about it or try
arranging one on ones during the conference in London in a few months.
-If they feel they are making an impact
-What other options they were deciding between and why they chose what
they did
-Where they think the field will go and what will it need
-If they think you would be a good fit.
Sounds good in case in case I manage an interview. Thanks.
Now you can compare ETG to what you learned about direct work. You can
interview people earning to give in the field you’d work within and
people related to philanthropy in the space you’d be donating to. That
could look like:
Thanks for outlining how to go about determining the value and
comparing different options. I appreciate it. Interviews might be
something I would need to go after. I shall see how I can do
that. Emailing, pming and posting in ea forums does not seem to help
or am missing something.
If you need to further clarify ETG advantage, you can speak to hiring
managers or heads of people at EA or non-EA places you’d be excited to
work at. Ask them how much better their best candidate tends to be
than their second-best candidate.
It appears that people don’t have these numbers and are not interested
in them. I didn’t get any useful answer from EAF, Open Phil, FHI, CEA and
didn’t get far with this EXACT SAME QUESTION on replaceability.
On the whole, informational interviews are priceless.
You can find all these people using this method or by asking others if
they know someone who is doing a certain role.
Here is a recent forum post on how to prepare for informational
interviews; (keep in mind you might want to be more formal toward
non-EAs). Don’t forget to say thanks and cement the bond afterward. If
you can help the person in any small way, you should.
And here are two blurbs from 80k encouraging informational interviews
and other types of exploration.
Perfect. I hope EAG can help me out with IIs (informational interviews).
So, long story short, you will need to find those people, examples,
and evidence that are relevant to you. I get that it is really not
easy… I’m in the middle of it too. But just keep getting things down
on paper and things will start to become clearer. Take it bit by bit,
and try to get more (not necessarily complete) clarity on one aspect
per day.
Good luck to you. Have you tried reaching out to people, what was the
response like. Who responded? What did you ask exactly? (Maybe in pm?
I can share with you more details of my approach and info, if it helps)
Also, you don’t have to have your path figured out now. If you can
narrow it down to 2-3 options, see what next step you could take that
would be relevant to both/all paths. If you are at the exact branching
point today, then try out a role for a year in a way that should give
you pretty good career capital for the other option(s). Then switch to
try out another role in a year’s time if it still is not clear. Most
likely, a couple of key cruxes will arise while you work.
Well am 29 and want to know if I should go in the direction of a
masters (to keep ETG open) or upskill in research at EAOs.
OP posted this question, worded slightly differently, on Facebook as well. I answered there, and they asked me to repost here.
[TLDR: I don’t think that anyone can give you the examples relevant for you. You need to find and speak to the relevant people, outside of EA as well. It is very doable, but there are also workarounds if you can’t decide right now. Action creates clarity.]
I think 80K is actually saying it is better for most people to do direct work (including but not limited to neglected roles at EA orgs) than ETG. So don’t just consider EAO vs ETG. Direct work most likely will /not/ be at an EA org, but would be within a field important to a top EA cause area.
The preference for roles outside of EA makes sense to me, because, while an EA org is likely to find a few good top candidates they consider value-aligned, acting in the wider world using EA principles is a much more reliable (and even stronger) counterfactual. The counterfactual hire at a non-EA business/org/foundation is unlikely to operate with EA in mind.
This is similar to how earning to give is more of a reliable counterfactual than working at an EA org, in that you are almost certainly adding 100% extra money in the pot—the candidate who would have gotten your high-paying job would almost certainly not have donated to an effective charity.
In the end, though, the path for you depends on a lot. You must consider your personal fit and your EA comparative advantage. It also depends on how you expect your favored cause areas, funding, and EA as a movement to evolve. I recommend brain dumping and drafting out as much as you can regarding those 5 things to clarify expectations and cruxes! If you can find cruxes, then you can investigate with expert interviews. Reach out to individuals, not orgs.
Regarding direct work options, reach out to individuals in roles that you could see yourself in (within or outside of an EA org). Even if you are stuck with half a dozen possible roles, that is narrowed down enough that you can ask people in those roles:
-If they feel they are making an impact
-What other options they were deciding between and why they chose what they did
-Where they think the field will go and what will it need
-If they think you would be a good fit.
Now you can compare ETG to what you learned about direct work. You can interview people earning to give in the field you’d work within and people related to philanthropy in the space you’d be donating to. That could look like:
-Fundraisers for an org you love
-Grantmakers in the space
-Relevant foundation researchers, coordinators, and others
Then see if they expect extra annual donations of A-B to be better/worse than direct work of X, Y, or Z.
If you need to further clarify ETG advantage, you can speak to hiring managers or heads of people at EA or non-EA places you’d be excited to work at. Ask them how much better their best candidate tends to be than their second-best candidate.
On the whole, informational interviews are priceless.
You can find all these people using this method or by asking others if they know someone who is doing a certain role.
Here is a recent forum post on how to prepare for informational interviews (keep in mind you might want to be more formal toward non-EAs). Don’t forget to say thanks and cement the bond afterward. If you can help the person in any small way, you should.
And here are two blurbs from 80k encouraging informational interviews and other types of exploration.
So, long story short, you will need to find those people, examples, and evidence that are relevant to you. I get that it is really not easy… I’m in the middle of it too. But just keep getting things down on paper and things will start to become clearer. Take it bit by bit, and try to get more (not necessarily complete) clarity on one aspect per day.
Also, you don’t have to have your path figured out now. If you can narrow it down to 2-3 options, see what next step you could take that would be relevant to both/all paths. If you are at the exact branching point today, then try out a role for a year in a way that should give you pretty good career capital for the other option(s). Then switch to try out another role in a year’s time if it still is not clear. Most likely, a couple of key cruxes will arise while you work.
Action creates clarity, so don’t worry about getting things perfect for now. You actually just need to learn enough to take your immediate next step with confidence.
Good luck and feel free to PM
I don’t need examples “relevant to me”. I just wanted to know what sort of impact people are making say in Open Phil CE or other EAs considering relevant factors such as replaceability in fields like GR, AI SSP, and management positions. Sorry that was not clear.
This is a claim what 80khours makes. Do you have ONE example for this claim?
It looks like “career advice” to me. What I am asking seems to be different. Evidence for claims “working at EA org is better than ETG (for most people)” based on NOW. That’s all.
I don’t know what you mean with cruxes. I guess you mean things that are stopping you from going further. The QUESTION posted is what I wanted more info about. But sadly NO ONE seems to be able answer it.
I reached out to several orgs and people regarding the question above. But most of them aren’t able to provide me any useful info such as amount of dollars moved or replaceability. The only people that answered me are Peter Hurford and Jon Behar. I also wanted to get some info on the fully longtermism projects but I have 0 info.
Maybe I check with Aaron Gertler on how to go about it or try arranging one on ones during the conference in London in a few months.
Sounds good in case in case I manage an interview. Thanks.
Thanks for outlining how to go about determining the value and comparing different options. I appreciate it. Interviews might be something I would need to go after. I shall see how I can do that. Emailing, pming and posting in ea forums does not seem to help or am missing something.
It appears that people don’t have these numbers and are not interested in them. I didn’t get any useful answer from EAF, Open Phil, FHI, CEA and didn’t get far with this EXACT SAME QUESTION on replaceability.
Perfect. I hope EAG can help me out with IIs (informational interviews).
Good luck to you. Have you tried reaching out to people, what was the response like. Who responded? What did you ask exactly? (Maybe in pm? I can share with you more details of my approach and info, if it helps)
Well am 29 and want to know if I should go in the direction of a masters (to keep ETG open) or upskill in research at EAOs.
Thank you for the post. Will do.