I worry ‘wholesomeness’ overemphasizes doing what’s comfortable and convenient and feels good, rather than what makes the world better:
As mentioned, wholesomeness could stifle visionaries, and this downside wasn’t discussed further.
Fighting to abolish slavery wasn’t a particularly wholesome act, in fact it created a lot of unwholesome conflict. Protests aren’t wholesome. I expect a lot of important future work to look and feel unwholesome. (I’m aware you could fit it into the framework somehow, but it’s an awkward fit.)
I worry it’ll make EA focus even more on creating a cushy environment for its own members (further expanding its parental leave policy and mental health benefits for the third time and running wonderful team retreats in fancy retreat centers), rather than on getting important things done in the world.
Things like virtues and integrity in my opinion do a better job at addressing the naïve consequentialist failure modes that wholesomeness is supposed to address.
I definitely think it’s important to consider (and head off) ways that it could go wrong!
Your first two bullets are discussed a bit further in the third essay which I’ll put up soon. In short, I completely agree that sometimes you need visionary thought or revolutionary action. At the same time I think revolutionary action—taken by people convinced that they are right—can be terrifying and harmful (e.g. the Cultural Revolution). I’d really prefer if people engaging in such actions felt some need to first feel into what is unwholesome about them, so that they’re making the choices consciously and may be able to steer away from the most harmful versions.
On your third point, I kind of feel the other way? Like I think it feels wholesome to have a certain level of support for staff, but lots of cushy benefits doesn’t really feel wholesome, and I feel is more likely to come from people in an optimizing “how do we make ourselves attractive to staff?” mindset. (Am I an outlier here? Does it feel wholesome to you to have cushy benefits for staff?)
Edit: On the third point, I do think that emphasising wholesomeness would lead to fewer people pushing themselves to the point of burnout. I have mixed feelings about this. The optimistic view is that it would help people to find healthy sustainable balances, and also help reduce people being putoff because of seeing burnout. The pessimistic view is that it would lead to just less work, and also perhaps less of a culture of taking important things very seriously.
I worry ‘wholesomeness’ overemphasizes doing what’s comfortable and convenient and feels good, rather than what makes the world better:
As mentioned, wholesomeness could stifle visionaries, and this downside wasn’t discussed further.
Fighting to abolish slavery wasn’t a particularly wholesome act, in fact it created a lot of unwholesome conflict. Protests aren’t wholesome. I expect a lot of important future work to look and feel unwholesome. (I’m aware you could fit it into the framework somehow, but it’s an awkward fit.)
I worry it’ll make EA focus even more on creating a cushy environment for its own members (further expanding its parental leave policy and mental health benefits for the third time and running wonderful team retreats in fancy retreat centers), rather than on getting important things done in the world.
Things like virtues and integrity in my opinion do a better job at addressing the naïve consequentialist failure modes that wholesomeness is supposed to address.
I definitely think it’s important to consider (and head off) ways that it could go wrong!
Your first two bullets are discussed a bit further in the third essay which I’ll put up soon. In short, I completely agree that sometimes you need visionary thought or revolutionary action. At the same time I think revolutionary action—taken by people convinced that they are right—can be terrifying and harmful (e.g. the Cultural Revolution). I’d really prefer if people engaging in such actions felt some need to first feel into what is unwholesome about them, so that they’re making the choices consciously and may be able to steer away from the most harmful versions.
On your third point, I kind of feel the other way? Like I think it feels wholesome to have a certain level of support for staff, but lots of cushy benefits doesn’t really feel wholesome, and I feel is more likely to come from people in an optimizing “how do we make ourselves attractive to staff?” mindset. (Am I an outlier here? Does it feel wholesome to you to have cushy benefits for staff?)
Edit: On the third point, I do think that emphasising wholesomeness would lead to fewer people pushing themselves to the point of burnout. I have mixed feelings about this. The optimistic view is that it would help people to find healthy sustainable balances, and also help reduce people being putoff because of seeing burnout. The pessimistic view is that it would lead to just less work, and also perhaps less of a culture of taking important things very seriously.
This is the relevant section of the third essay on visionaries/revolutionaries.