Thanks for your response. I agree that the goal should be trying to hold the conference in a way that’s best for the world and for EA’s goals. If I were to frame my argument more formally, it would be something like—suppose that you reject 1000 people per year (I have no idea if this is close to the right number). 5% get either angry or discouraged and drop out of EA. Another 5% leave EA on their own for unrelated reasons, but would have stayed if they had gone to the conference because of some good experience they had there. So my totally made up Fermi estimate is that we lose 100 people from EA each time we run a closed conference. Are the benefits of the closed conference great enough to compensate for that?
I’m not sure, because I still don’t understand what those benefits are. I mentioned in the post that I’d be in favor of continuing to have a high admissions bar for the networking app (or maybe just sorting networkers by promise level). You write that:
Very involved and engaged EAs might be less eager to come to EAG if the event is not particularly selective. (This is a thing we sometimes get complaints about but it’s hard for people to voice this opinion publicly, because it can sound elitist). These are precisely the kinds of people we most need to come — they are the most in-demand people that attendees want to talk to (because they can offer mentorship, job opportunities, etc.).
I think maybe our crux is that I don’t understand this impulse, beyond the networking thing I mentioned above. Is the concern that the unpromising people will force promising people into boring conversations and take up too much of their time? That they’ll disrupt talks?
We also have the EAGx conference series, which is more introductory and has a lower bar for admissions. If someone is excited to learn more about EA, they’d likely be better suited to an EAGx event (and they’d be more likely to get accepted, too).
My understanding is that people also sometimes get rejected from EAGx and there is no open admission conference, is this correct?
Hi Scott — it’s hard to talk about these things publicly, but yes a big concern of opening up the conference is that attendees’ time won’t end up spent on the most valuable conversations they could be having. I also worry that a two-tiered app system would cause more tension and hurt feelings than it would prevent. A lot of conversations aren’t scheduled through the app but happen serendipitously throughout the event. (Of the things you mentioned, I’m not particularly worried about attendees disrupting talks.)
We’ve thought a fair bit about the “how costly is rejection” question, and think there’s a real but relatively small discouragement effect where rejected applicants are less likely to re-apply to our events (or engage with EA in general). In an internal report we wrote recently about this, we felt more concerned about whether rejection makes it less likely for people to apply in the first place (but we think we can reduce this with clearer comms about the admissions bar).
It is true that people can get rejected from EAGx’s, but the bar is lower — and often people get rejected from EAGx’s because some of these events are for specific regions (such as for EAs based in India). It’s correct that there is currently no open admission conference.
For what it’s worth, I still don’t feel like I understand CEA’s model of how having extra people present hurts the most prestigious attendees.
If you are (say) a plant-based meat expert, you are already surrounded by many AI researchers, epidemiologists, developmental economists, biosecurity analyists, community-builders, PR people, journalists, anti-factory-farm-activists, et cetera. You are probably going to have to plan your conversations pretty deliberately to stick to people within your same field, or who you are likely to have interesting things to say to. If the conference were twice as big, or three times, and filled with eg people who weren’t quite sure yet what they wanted to do with their careers, would that be the difference between that expert having a high chance of productive serendipitious conversations vs. not?
In an internal report we wrote recently about this, we felt more concerned about whether rejection makes it less likely for people to apply in the first place (but we think we can reduce this with clearer comms about the admissions bar).
I’m not sure I agree with Scott that EAG should be open access, but since you mention this as a concern, I thought I’d mention that, yep, I haven’t bothered applying to EAG for several years. The discussion around EAG the last few years made it seem incredibly obvious that I wouldn’t be wanted anyway, so I didn’t even bother weighing the pros and cons of trying to attend. Now that I actually think about it, I’m not at all sure that I should have been so convinced I couldn’t get in. I attended EAG in 2018 as a volunteer because I was told that the organizers couldn’t find anyone more qualified to run a discussion group about EA and religion, and I still have my 2018 EAG name tag that labels me a “Speaker”. In terms of more recent involvement, I won a second prize in the recent EA forum writing contest, I’m theoretically a mod for the EA Corner discord server, and I’ve been working on putting together an essay about the most effective ways of preventing miscarriages for people who place high credence on the possibility unborn children having moral worth (though I’m still working on contacting various people involved in that work and getting cost estimates of their operations, so it’s not ready yet).
...but I figured that Everyone Knows that you don’t get a spot unless you’re professionally involved in EA direct work, have been involved in one of the various formal EA fellowships, or have a bunch of personal brand recognition, so I never got to the point of weighing the pros and cons of attendance; I assumed that I couldn’t attend, and immediately turned my attention to being okay with not being an important EA member like some of my friends are.
Not sure this is anyone’s fault, or whether I would have wanted to go to EAG even if I could—I assume there’s an attendance fee, and I might not have wanted to shell out—but I saw your comment and wanted to mention it as an experience that some people do have right now.
but I figured that Everyone Knows that you don’t get a spot unless you’re professionally involved in EA direct work, have been involved in one of the various formal EA fellowships, or have a bunch of personal brand recognition...
For what it’s worth, my experience is that this is entirely not the case. Most people from my country who have gone to EAG were not any of those.
I assume there’s an attendance fee, and I might not have wanted to shell out
There’s a ticket fee, but you can choose to pay a discounted amount, and if you receive financial aid to come to the conference, the ticket fee is waived.
I don’t know if you still want to attend EAGs, but I hope this tells you that you can definitely apply.
Thanks for your response. I agree that the goal should be trying to hold the conference in a way that’s best for the world and for EA’s goals. If I were to frame my argument more formally, it would be something like—suppose that you reject 1000 people per year (I have no idea if this is close to the right number). 5% get either angry or discouraged and drop out of EA. Another 5% leave EA on their own for unrelated reasons, but would have stayed if they had gone to the conference because of some good experience they had there. So my totally made up Fermi estimate is that we lose 100 people from EA each time we run a closed conference. Are the benefits of the closed conference great enough to compensate for that?
I’m not sure, because I still don’t understand what those benefits are. I mentioned in the post that I’d be in favor of continuing to have a high admissions bar for the networking app (or maybe just sorting networkers by promise level). You write that:
I think maybe our crux is that I don’t understand this impulse, beyond the networking thing I mentioned above. Is the concern that the unpromising people will force promising people into boring conversations and take up too much of their time? That they’ll disrupt talks?
My understanding is that people also sometimes get rejected from EAGx and there is no open admission conference, is this correct?
Hi Scott — it’s hard to talk about these things publicly, but yes a big concern of opening up the conference is that attendees’ time won’t end up spent on the most valuable conversations they could be having. I also worry that a two-tiered app system would cause more tension and hurt feelings than it would prevent. A lot of conversations aren’t scheduled through the app but happen serendipitously throughout the event. (Of the things you mentioned, I’m not particularly worried about attendees disrupting talks.)
We’ve thought a fair bit about the “how costly is rejection” question, and think there’s a real but relatively small discouragement effect where rejected applicants are less likely to re-apply to our events (or engage with EA in general). In an internal report we wrote recently about this, we felt more concerned about whether rejection makes it less likely for people to apply in the first place (but we think we can reduce this with clearer comms about the admissions bar).
It is true that people can get rejected from EAGx’s, but the bar is lower — and often people get rejected from EAGx’s because some of these events are for specific regions (such as for EAs based in India). It’s correct that there is currently no open admission conference.
For what it’s worth, I still don’t feel like I understand CEA’s model of how having extra people present hurts the most prestigious attendees.
If you are (say) a plant-based meat expert, you are already surrounded by many AI researchers, epidemiologists, developmental economists, biosecurity analyists, community-builders, PR people, journalists, anti-factory-farm-activists, et cetera. You are probably going to have to plan your conversations pretty deliberately to stick to people within your same field, or who you are likely to have interesting things to say to. If the conference were twice as big, or three times, and filled with eg people who weren’t quite sure yet what they wanted to do with their careers, would that be the difference between that expert having a high chance of productive serendipitious conversations vs. not?
I also don’t get this. I can;t help thinking about the Inner Ring essay by C.S. Lewis. I hope that’s not what’s happening.
I’m not sure I agree with Scott that EAG should be open access, but since you mention this as a concern, I thought I’d mention that, yep, I haven’t bothered applying to EAG for several years. The discussion around EAG the last few years made it seem incredibly obvious that I wouldn’t be wanted anyway, so I didn’t even bother weighing the pros and cons of trying to attend. Now that I actually think about it, I’m not at all sure that I should have been so convinced I couldn’t get in. I attended EAG in 2018 as a volunteer because I was told that the organizers couldn’t find anyone more qualified to run a discussion group about EA and religion, and I still have my 2018 EAG name tag that labels me a “Speaker”. In terms of more recent involvement, I won a second prize in the recent EA forum writing contest, I’m theoretically a mod for the EA Corner discord server, and I’ve been working on putting together an essay about the most effective ways of preventing miscarriages for people who place high credence on the possibility unborn children having moral worth (though I’m still working on contacting various people involved in that work and getting cost estimates of their operations, so it’s not ready yet).
...but I figured that Everyone Knows that you don’t get a spot unless you’re professionally involved in EA direct work, have been involved in one of the various formal EA fellowships, or have a bunch of personal brand recognition, so I never got to the point of weighing the pros and cons of attendance; I assumed that I couldn’t attend, and immediately turned my attention to being okay with not being an important EA member like some of my friends are.
Not sure this is anyone’s fault, or whether I would have wanted to go to EAG even if I could—I assume there’s an attendance fee, and I might not have wanted to shell out—but I saw your comment and wanted to mention it as an experience that some people do have right now.
For what it’s worth, my experience is that this is entirely not the case. Most people from my country who have gone to EAG were not any of those.
There’s a ticket fee, but you can choose to pay a discounted amount, and if you receive financial aid to come to the conference, the ticket fee is waived.
I don’t know if you still want to attend EAGs, but I hope this tells you that you can definitely apply.