Just wondering if you can acknowledge that EA is not for everyone? I guess I feel a lot “safer” about these types of critiques to change the culture and overt focus when people acknowledge that. There are ways I would tweak EA culture in some places to lead to a bigger and broader community. There also ways I would not, and there are people who I think would never be happy with EA’s values unless it already described what they are already interested in and already believe, which is very far from and conflicts with EA. And those people will never like EA until we forsake the effectiveness focus at all.
For example, this person:
In an introductory discussion group we ran (in our university group), one of the participants perceived some of EA’s ideas as “cold-hearted” and was very critical of the abstract, sometimes detached way of trying to calculate how to do good most effectively.
(Not saying you didn’t do this but) If it were me leading that group I might poke at that a little and help them think differently. Because I think often people like that have picked up a slight mistaken impression along the way. And based on where that misunderstanding was, it would be great to be able to replace or augment parts of the curriculum, even if it is just with your own disclaimer. You could ask them what would prove them wrong about that conception? You could ask them if they think there is ever a way to compare interventions and how they would do so?
But I also might just say something like, “okay well this group and movement might not be for you then and that’s okay. You would meet plenty of warmhearted people in EA, and I think by definition it might be wrong to call altruistic tactics coldhearted. But if you have such a strong reaction, you probably won’t ever be happy with the goals and tactics of the movement. And that’s fine. Good luck in your altruistic endeavors”
I wonder if you think that person would ever really be a good fit for EA?
It is frustrating to see people bounce off the movement saying it is too cold. And it might be a reason to tweak the intro curriculum or work on the culture in your group. There is something going on there, and it does happen often, and I don’t like it either. But I don’t think it warrants coming to EAs and saying anything approaching “you guys actually are cold and need to work on compassion”. I actually don’t think they* are? EAs are the warmest most compassionate people I know. (*I had said “we” originally but removing myself from this as I’m one of the colder ones in writing style. But even I have cried many a tear for animals, minorities, people in poverty, etc)
[Edit: I accidentally flowed into a bunch of suggestions, but originally I wanted it to have a questioning tone and just wanted to know what you think]
On that person objecting on coldness, could one not frame it as not being about being cold, but about expanding the warmth and care to others? To me, thinking about broiler chickens and neglected families in malaria ridden areas is not cold at all. What is cold to me is to not think of them when making a choice about career or donations. If anything, my reading of numerical and scientific analysis of broiler chickens has increased my feeling of warmth towards those animals, without even the slightest reducing the warmth I feel toward the homeless person out in the snow. I am quite certain many other EAs feel the same way. I just do not see a conflict here?
And I also think we should be open to and positive towards people with less “warmth” but a desire to help in a more dispassionate manner. As long as one wants to help as much as possible, I do not see why it matters that much how much of the “fuzzies” they get from helping?
I totally agree with what you’re saying, that there doesn’t have to be a conflict. The way you describe it, I think that extending care through rational reflection is exactly how things can work out very beautifully.
And I also agree with your second point here, that caring doesn’t mean getting “warm fuzzy feelings”. And since being welcoming involves being non-judgmental about people, of course we should be open and positive to all!
I think that this is a really good point. I shudder at the idea that “EA is not for everyone” because I want to make spaces inclusive and welcoming, and I hate the feeling of being excluded from things for (what I percieve as) no good reason… but I think that that recognizing the idea that EA maybe really isn’t for everyone has a lot of truth.
In a simple sense, some people just don’t like taking the warm, fuzzy, feel-good empathy out of decisions. But also, some people don’t have the money or the skills to contribute.
Thank you Ivy! I acknowledge that EA may not be for everyone. And I don’t want to make EA popular at any cost. What matters to me is the reason why it might not be for everyone. If someone is just cringing at some unsympathetic social behaviour, or generally disagrees with the ideas, but still feels welcome. I think it is important to maintain the effectiveness mindset while being careful not to become somewhat sociopathic or come across as a robot, but to remain friendly and approachable as a human being.
Regarding the introductory fellowship, we had a very engaged discussion and the reason for their impression was to a large extent a misunderstanding of the idea. And it is this possibility of misunderstanding the idea that I wanted to highlight. If, after such a discussion and clarification, they still don’t really feel that this would be something for them, I have no problem with wishing them well and good luck and letting them go. But I would also say “the door is open, you are welcome to talk to us again if you like”.
I also didn’t want to say “you’re really cold and need to work on your compassion”, I think that would be quite a weird thing to do, honestly. As I tried to mention in the beginning, I feel very lucky to know so many wonderful people in the community. I was just trying to point out risks that I see and the value of these virtues of kindness. So that we don’t lose them along the way, but continue to cultivate them.
Just wondering if you can acknowledge that EA is not for everyone? I guess I feel a lot “safer” about these types of critiques to change the culture and overt focus when people acknowledge that. There are ways I would tweak EA culture in some places to lead to a bigger and broader community. There also ways I would not, and there are people who I think would never be happy with EA’s values unless it already described what they are already interested in and already believe, which is very far from and conflicts with EA. And those people will never like EA until we forsake the effectiveness focus at all.
For example, this person:
(Not saying you didn’t do this but) If it were me leading that group I might poke at that a little and help them think differently. Because I think often people like that have picked up a slight mistaken impression along the way. And based on where that misunderstanding was, it would be great to be able to replace or augment parts of the curriculum, even if it is just with your own disclaimer. You could ask them what would prove them wrong about that conception? You could ask them if they think there is ever a way to compare interventions and how they would do so?
But I also might just say something like, “okay well this group and movement might not be for you then and that’s okay. You would meet plenty of warmhearted people in EA, and I think by definition it might be wrong to call altruistic tactics coldhearted. But if you have such a strong reaction, you probably won’t ever be happy with the goals and tactics of the movement. And that’s fine. Good luck in your altruistic endeavors”
I wonder if you think that person would ever really be a good fit for EA?
It is frustrating to see people bounce off the movement saying it is too cold. And it might be a reason to tweak the intro curriculum or work on the culture in your group. There is something going on there, and it does happen often, and I don’t like it either. But I don’t think it warrants coming to EAs and saying anything approaching “you guys actually are cold and need to work on compassion”. I actually don’t think they* are? EAs are the warmest most compassionate people I know. (*I had said “we” originally but removing myself from this as I’m one of the colder ones in writing style. But even I have cried many a tear for animals, minorities, people in poverty, etc)
[Edit: I accidentally flowed into a bunch of suggestions, but originally I wanted it to have a questioning tone and just wanted to know what you think]
On that person objecting on coldness, could one not frame it as not being about being cold, but about expanding the warmth and care to others? To me, thinking about broiler chickens and neglected families in malaria ridden areas is not cold at all. What is cold to me is to not think of them when making a choice about career or donations. If anything, my reading of numerical and scientific analysis of broiler chickens has increased my feeling of warmth towards those animals, without even the slightest reducing the warmth I feel toward the homeless person out in the snow. I am quite certain many other EAs feel the same way. I just do not see a conflict here?
And I also think we should be open to and positive towards people with less “warmth” but a desire to help in a more dispassionate manner. As long as one wants to help as much as possible, I do not see why it matters that much how much of the “fuzzies” they get from helping?
I totally agree with what you’re saying, that there doesn’t have to be a conflict. The way you describe it, I think that extending care through rational reflection is exactly how things can work out very beautifully.
And I also agree with your second point here, that caring doesn’t mean getting “warm fuzzy feelings”. And since being welcoming involves being non-judgmental about people, of course we should be open and positive to all!
I think that this is a really good point. I shudder at the idea that “EA is not for everyone” because I want to make spaces inclusive and welcoming, and I hate the feeling of being excluded from things for (what I percieve as) no good reason… but I think that that recognizing the idea that EA maybe really isn’t for everyone has a lot of truth.
In a simple sense, some people just don’t like taking the warm, fuzzy, feel-good empathy out of decisions. But also, some people don’t have the money or the skills to contribute.
Thank you Ivy!
I acknowledge that EA may not be for everyone. And I don’t want to make EA popular at any cost.
What matters to me is the reason why it might not be for everyone. If someone is just cringing at some unsympathetic social behaviour, or generally disagrees with the ideas, but still feels welcome.
I think it is important to maintain the effectiveness mindset while being careful not to become somewhat sociopathic or come across as a robot, but to remain friendly and approachable as a human being.
Regarding the introductory fellowship, we had a very engaged discussion and the reason for their impression was to a large extent a misunderstanding of the idea. And it is this possibility of misunderstanding the idea that I wanted to highlight.
If, after such a discussion and clarification, they still don’t really feel that this would be something for them, I have no problem with wishing them well and good luck and letting them go. But I would also say “the door is open, you are welcome to talk to us again if you like”.
I also didn’t want to say “you’re really cold and need to work on your compassion”, I think that would be quite a weird thing to do, honestly. As I tried to mention in the beginning, I feel very lucky to know so many wonderful people in the community. I was just trying to point out risks that I see and the value of these virtues of kindness. So that we don’t lose them along the way, but continue to cultivate them.