I’d like to agree partially with MichaelPlant and Paul_Crowley, in so far as I’m glad that I’m part of a community that responds to problems in such a charitable and diligent manner. However, I feel they missed the most important point of shlevy’s comment. Without arguing for a less fair-mined and thoughtful response, we can still ask the following: Gleb started InIn back in 2014; why did it take us two years to get to the point where we were able to call him out on his bad behaviour? This could’ve been called out much earlier.
I think the answer looks like this:
Firstly, Gleb has learned the in-group signals of communicating in good-faith (for example, at every criticism, he says he has “updated”, and he says ‘thank you’ for criticism). This alone is not a problem—it would merely take a few people to realise this, call it out, and then he could be asked to leave the community.
There’s a second part however, which is that once a person has learned (from experience) that Gleb is acting in bad faith, the next time that person comes to the discussion, everybody else sees the standard signals of good-faith communication, and as such the person may be hesitant to treat Gleb as they would treat someone else who was clearly acting in bad faith. This is because they would be seen as unnecessarily harsh by people without the background experiences—as was seen multiple times in the original Facebook thread, when people (who did not have the past experience with Gleb) were confused by the harshness of the criticism, and criticised the tone of the conversation. My guess for the fundamental reason that we are having this conversation now, is that Jeff Kaufman bravely made his beliefs about Gleb common knowledge—he made a blog post about InIn, after which everyone else realised “Oh, everyone else believes this too. I’m not worried any more that everyone will think negatively of me for acting as though Gleb is acting in bad faith. I will now let out the piled up problems I have with Gleb’s behaviour.”
To re-iterate, it’s delightful to be part of a community that responds to this sort of situation by spending ~100s of hours (collectively) and ~100k words (I’m counting the original Facebook thread as well as the post here) analysing the situation and producing a considered, charitable yet damning report. However, it’s important to realise that there are communities out there for whom Gleb would’ve been outed in months rather than years, and without the time of many top researchers in the community wasted.
I’m not sure what the correct norms to have are. I’d suggest that we should be more trusting that when someone in the community criticises someone else not in the community, they’re doing it for good reasons. However, writing that out is almost self-refuting—that’s what all insular communities are doing. Perhaps appointing a small group of moderators for the community to whom we trust. That’s how good online communities often work, perhaps the model can be extended to the EA community (which is significantly more than just an online community). I certainly want to sustain the excellent norms of charity, diligence and respect that we currently have, something necessary to any successful intellectual project.
I just want to highlight that I feel like part of this post is based on a false premise; you mention InIn was started in 2014. While that may be true, all of the incidents in EA (and Less Wrong) circles cited above date to November 2015 or later. Gleb’s very first submission in the EA forum is in October 2015. By saying ‘it took two years’ and then talking about ‘months rather than years’ you give the impression that Gleb could have been excluded sometime back in 2015 and would have been elsewhere, which I think is pretty misleading (though presumably unintentionally so).
The truth is that it took a little over 9 months from Gleb’s first post to Jeff’s major public criticism. 9 months and a decent amount of time is not trivial. But let’s not overstate the problem.
“There’s a second part however, which is that once a person has learned (from experience) that Gleb is acting in bad faith, the next time that person comes to the discussion, everybody else sees the standard signals of good-faith communication, and as such the person may be hesitant to treat Gleb as they would treat someone else who was clearly acting in bad faith. This is because they would be seen as unnecessarily harsh by people without the background experiences—as was seen multiple times in the original Facebook thread, when people (who did not have the past experience with Gleb) were confused by the harshness of the criticism, and criticised the tone of the conversation.”
I do strongly agree with this. I had some very frustrating conversations around that thread.
Pretty much agree with you and shlevy here, except that the wasting hundreds of collective hours carefully checking that Gleb is acting in bad faith seems more like a waste to me.
If the EA community were primarily a community that functioned in person, it would be easier and more natural to deal with bad actors like Gleb; people could privately (in small conversations, then bigger ones, none of which involve Gleb) discuss and come to a consensus about his badness, that consensus could spread in other private smallish then bigger conversations none of which involve Gleb, and people could either ignore Gleb until he goes away, or just not invite him to stuff, or explicitly kick him out in some way.
But in a community that primarily functions online, where by default conversations are public and involve everyone, including Gleb, the above dynamic is a lot harder to sustain, and instead the default approach to ostracism is public ostracism, which people interested in charitable conversational norms understandably want to avoid. But just not having ostracism at all isn’t a workable alternative; sometimes bad actors creep into your community and you need an immune system capable of rejecting them. In many online communites this takes the form of a process for banning people; I don’t know how workable this would be for the EA community, since my impression is that it’s spread out across several platforms.
Seems worth establishing the fact that bad actors exist, will try to join our community, and engage in this pattern of almost plausibly deniable shamelessly bad behavior. I think EAs often have a mental block around admitting that in most of the world, lying is a cheap and effective strategy for personal gain; I think we make wrong judgments because we’re missing this key fact about how the world works. I think we should generalize from this incident, and having a clear record is helpful for doing so.
Yes! But… you said your opening line as though it disagreed somehow? I said:
it’s important to realise that there are communities out there for whom Gleb would’ve been outed in months rather than years, and without the time of many top researchers in the community wasted.
To re-iterate, it’s delightful to be part of a community that responds to this sort of situation by spending ~100s of hours (collectively) and ~100k words (I’m counting the original Facebook thread as well as the post here) analysing the situation and producing a considered, charitable yet damning report.
and while I think this behavior is in some sense admirable, I think it is on net not delightful, and the huge waste of time it represents is bad on net except to the extent that it leads to better community norms around policing bad actors.
I’d suggest that we should be more trusting that when someone in the community criticises someone else not in the community, they’re doing it for good reasons. However, writing that out is almost self-refuting—that’s what all insular communities are doing.
Yes, insofar communities do that, but typically in emotive and highly biased ways. EA at least has more constructive norms for how these things are discussed. It’s not perfect, and it’s not fast, but here I see people taking pains to be as fair-minded as they can be. (We achieve that to different degrees, but the effort is expected.)
Perhaps appointing a small group of moderators for the community to whom we trust.
My System 1 doesn’t like this. Giving this power to a group of people and suggesting that we accept their guidance… that feels cultish, and not very compatible with a community of critical thinkers.
Scientific departments have ethics boards. Good online communities (e.g. Hacker News) have moderators. Society as a whole has a justice part of governance, and other groups that check on the decisions made by the courts. Suggesting that it feels cult-y to outsource some of our community norm-enfacement (so as to save the community as a whole significant time input, and make the process more efficient and effective) is… I’m just confused every time someone calls something totally normal ‘cult-y’.
I deliberately said “My System 1 doesn’t like this.” and “that feels cultish” – on an intuitive level, I feel uncomfortable, and I’m trying to work out why. I do see value in having effective gatekeepers.
I’m not even sure what it means to be “banned” from a movement consisting of multiple organisations and many individuals. It may be that if the process is clearly defined, and we know who is making the decision, on whose behalf, I’d be more comfortable with it.
Just in case you’re interested: I think the word ‘cultish’ is massively overloaded (with negative connotations) and mis-used. I’d also point out that saying that a statement is one’s gut feeling isn’t equivalent to saying one doesn’t endorse the feeling, and so I felt pretty defensive when you suggested my idea was cultish and not compatible with our community.
I wrote this because I thought you might prefer to know the impacts of your comments rather than not hearing negative feedback. My apologies in advance if that was a false assumption.
Thanks – helpful feedback (and from Owen also). In hindsight I would probably have kept the word “cultish” while being much more explicit about not completely endorsing the feeling.
Something went wrong with the communication channel if you ended up feeling defensive.
However, despite generally agreeing with you about problems with the world “cultish”, I actually think this is a reasonable use-case. It has a lot of connotations, and it was being reported that the description was triggering some of those connotations in the reader. That’s useful information that it may be worth some effort to avoiding it being perceived that way if the idea is pursued (your stack of examples make it pretty clear that it is avoidable).
I’d like to agree partially with MichaelPlant and Paul_Crowley, in so far as I’m glad that I’m part of a community that responds to problems in such a charitable and diligent manner. However, I feel they missed the most important point of shlevy’s comment. Without arguing for a less fair-mined and thoughtful response, we can still ask the following: Gleb started InIn back in 2014; why did it take us two years to get to the point where we were able to call him out on his bad behaviour? This could’ve been called out much earlier.
I think the answer looks like this:
Firstly, Gleb has learned the in-group signals of communicating in good-faith (for example, at every criticism, he says he has “updated”, and he says ‘thank you’ for criticism). This alone is not a problem—it would merely take a few people to realise this, call it out, and then he could be asked to leave the community.
There’s a second part however, which is that once a person has learned (from experience) that Gleb is acting in bad faith, the next time that person comes to the discussion, everybody else sees the standard signals of good-faith communication, and as such the person may be hesitant to treat Gleb as they would treat someone else who was clearly acting in bad faith. This is because they would be seen as unnecessarily harsh by people without the background experiences—as was seen multiple times in the original Facebook thread, when people (who did not have the past experience with Gleb) were confused by the harshness of the criticism, and criticised the tone of the conversation. My guess for the fundamental reason that we are having this conversation now, is that Jeff Kaufman bravely made his beliefs about Gleb common knowledge—he made a blog post about InIn, after which everyone else realised “Oh, everyone else believes this too. I’m not worried any more that everyone will think negatively of me for acting as though Gleb is acting in bad faith. I will now let out the piled up problems I have with Gleb’s behaviour.”
To re-iterate, it’s delightful to be part of a community that responds to this sort of situation by spending ~100s of hours (collectively) and ~100k words (I’m counting the original Facebook thread as well as the post here) analysing the situation and producing a considered, charitable yet damning report. However, it’s important to realise that there are communities out there for whom Gleb would’ve been outed in months rather than years, and without the time of many top researchers in the community wasted.
I’m not sure what the correct norms to have are. I’d suggest that we should be more trusting that when someone in the community criticises someone else not in the community, they’re doing it for good reasons. However, writing that out is almost self-refuting—that’s what all insular communities are doing. Perhaps appointing a small group of moderators for the community to whom we trust. That’s how good online communities often work, perhaps the model can be extended to the EA community (which is significantly more than just an online community). I certainly want to sustain the excellent norms of charity, diligence and respect that we currently have, something necessary to any successful intellectual project.
I just want to highlight that I feel like part of this post is based on a false premise; you mention InIn was started in 2014. While that may be true, all of the incidents in EA (and Less Wrong) circles cited above date to November 2015 or later. Gleb’s very first submission in the EA forum is in October 2015. By saying ‘it took two years’ and then talking about ‘months rather than years’ you give the impression that Gleb could have been excluded sometime back in 2015 and would have been elsewhere, which I think is pretty misleading (though presumably unintentionally so).
The truth is that it took a little over 9 months from Gleb’s first post to Jeff’s major public criticism. 9 months and a decent amount of time is not trivial. But let’s not overstate the problem.
“There’s a second part however, which is that once a person has learned (from experience) that Gleb is acting in bad faith, the next time that person comes to the discussion, everybody else sees the standard signals of good-faith communication, and as such the person may be hesitant to treat Gleb as they would treat someone else who was clearly acting in bad faith. This is because they would be seen as unnecessarily harsh by people without the background experiences—as was seen multiple times in the original Facebook thread, when people (who did not have the past experience with Gleb) were confused by the harshness of the criticism, and criticised the tone of the conversation.”
I do strongly agree with this. I had some very frustrating conversations around that thread.
Pretty much agree with you and shlevy here, except that the wasting hundreds of collective hours carefully checking that Gleb is acting in bad faith seems more like a waste to me.
If the EA community were primarily a community that functioned in person, it would be easier and more natural to deal with bad actors like Gleb; people could privately (in small conversations, then bigger ones, none of which involve Gleb) discuss and come to a consensus about his badness, that consensus could spread in other private smallish then bigger conversations none of which involve Gleb, and people could either ignore Gleb until he goes away, or just not invite him to stuff, or explicitly kick him out in some way.
But in a community that primarily functions online, where by default conversations are public and involve everyone, including Gleb, the above dynamic is a lot harder to sustain, and instead the default approach to ostracism is public ostracism, which people interested in charitable conversational norms understandably want to avoid. But just not having ostracism at all isn’t a workable alternative; sometimes bad actors creep into your community and you need an immune system capable of rejecting them. In many online communites this takes the form of a process for banning people; I don’t know how workable this would be for the EA community, since my impression is that it’s spread out across several platforms.
Seems worth establishing the fact that bad actors exist, will try to join our community, and engage in this pattern of almost plausibly deniable shamelessly bad behavior. I think EAs often have a mental block around admitting that in most of the world, lying is a cheap and effective strategy for personal gain; I think we make wrong judgments because we’re missing this key fact about how the world works. I think we should generalize from this incident, and having a clear record is helpful for doing so.
Yes! But… you said your opening line as though it disagreed somehow? I said:
I may be misinterpreting you here; you wrote
and while I think this behavior is in some sense admirable, I think it is on net not delightful, and the huge waste of time it represents is bad on net except to the extent that it leads to better community norms around policing bad actors.
Yup, we are in agreement.
(I was just noting how sweet it was that we do this much more kindly than most other communities. It’s totally not optimal though.)
Yes, insofar communities do that, but typically in emotive and highly biased ways. EA at least has more constructive norms for how these things are discussed. It’s not perfect, and it’s not fast, but here I see people taking pains to be as fair-minded as they can be. (We achieve that to different degrees, but the effort is expected.)
My System 1 doesn’t like this. Giving this power to a group of people and suggesting that we accept their guidance… that feels cultish, and not very compatible with a community of critical thinkers.
Scientific departments have ethics boards. Good online communities (e.g. Hacker News) have moderators. Society as a whole has a justice part of governance, and other groups that check on the decisions made by the courts. Suggesting that it feels cult-y to outsource some of our community norm-enfacement (so as to save the community as a whole significant time input, and make the process more efficient and effective) is… I’m just confused every time someone calls something totally normal ‘cult-y’.
I deliberately said “My System 1 doesn’t like this.” and “that feels cultish” – on an intuitive level, I feel uncomfortable, and I’m trying to work out why. I do see value in having effective gatekeepers.
I’m not even sure what it means to be “banned” from a movement consisting of multiple organisations and many individuals. It may be that if the process is clearly defined, and we know who is making the decision, on whose behalf, I’d be more comfortable with it.
Thanks for clarifying!
Just in case you’re interested: I think the word ‘cultish’ is massively overloaded (with negative connotations) and mis-used. I’d also point out that saying that a statement is one’s gut feeling isn’t equivalent to saying one doesn’t endorse the feeling, and so I felt pretty defensive when you suggested my idea was cultish and not compatible with our community.
I wrote this because I thought you might prefer to know the impacts of your comments rather than not hearing negative feedback. My apologies in advance if that was a false assumption.
Thanks – helpful feedback (and from Owen also). In hindsight I would probably have kept the word “cultish” while being much more explicit about not completely endorsing the feeling.
Something went wrong with the communication channel if you ended up feeling defensive.
However, despite generally agreeing with you about problems with the world “cultish”, I actually think this is a reasonable use-case. It has a lot of connotations, and it was being reported that the description was triggering some of those connotations in the reader. That’s useful information that it may be worth some effort to avoiding it being perceived that way if the idea is pursued (your stack of examples make it pretty clear that it is avoidable).