The problem goes beyond guardrails. Any attempts to reduce these conflicts of interest would have to contend with the extremely insular social scene in Berkeley. Since grantmakers frequently do not interact with many people outside of EA, and everyone in EA might end up applying for a grant from Open Phil, guardrails would significantly disrupt the social lives of grantmakers.
Let’s not forget that you can not just improperly favor romantic partners, but also just friends. The idea of stopping Open Phil from making grants to organizations where employees are close friends with (other) grantmakers is almost laughable because of how insular the social scene is—but that’s not at all normal for a grantmaking organization.
Even if Open Phil grantmakers separated themselves from the rest of the community, anyone who ever wanted to potentially become a grantmaker would have to do so as well because the community is so small. What if you become a grantmaker and your friend or romantic partner ends up applying for a grant?
In addition, many grants are socially evaluated at least partially, in my experience. Grantmakers have sometimes asked me what I think of people applying for grants, for example. This process will obviously favor friends of friends.
As such, the only way to fully remove conflicts of interest is likely to entail significant disruptions to the entire EA social scene (the one that involves everyone living/partying/working with the same very small group of people). I think that would be warranted, but that’s another post and I recognize I haven’t justified it fully here.
These dynamics are one reason (certainly not the only one) why I turned down an offer to be a part time grantmaker, choose not to live in Berkeley, and generally avoid dating within EA. Even if I cannot unilaterally remove these problems, I can avoid being part of them.
To be very clear: I am not saying “this can never be changed.” I am saying that it would require changing the EA social scene—that is, to somehow decentralize it. I am not sure how to do that well (rather than doing it poorly, or doing it in name only). But I increasingly believe it is likely to be necessary.
I appreciate you holding that the Bay Area EAs who “[all live/party/work] with the same very small group of people” should, umm, stop doing that. But until they do, do you think it’s worth it having very poor governance of large sums of money?
I’m genuinely not understanding this. Do you think only Bay area people can manage large amounts of money well? Or that non EA people won’t manage it well? Or something else?
I’m saying the opposite, that the same small group shouldn’t continue managing everything (and specifically, grantmaking) if they are so prone to conflicts of interest with each other.
I have not (yet) known myself to ever be negatively affected for speaking my mind in EA. However, I know others who have. Some possible reasons for the difference:
My fundamental ethical beliefs are pretty similar to the most senior people.
On the EA Forum, I make almost extreme effort to make tight claims and avoid overclaiming (though I don’t always succeed). If I have vibes-based criticisms (I have plenty) I tend to keep them to people I trust.
I “know my audience:” I am good at determining how to say things such that they won’t be received poorly. This doesn’t mean “rhetoric,” it means being aware of the most common ways my audience might misinterpret my words or the intent behind them, and making a conscious effort to clearly avoid those misinterpretations.
Related to the above, I tend to “listen before I speak” in new environments. I avoid making sweeping claims before I know my audience and understand their perspective inside and out.
I’m a techy white man working in AI safety and I’m not a leftist, so I’m less likely to be typed by people as an “outsider.” I suspect this is mostly subconscious, except for the leftist part, where I think there are some community members who will consciously think you are harmful to the epistemic environment if they think you’re a leftist and don’t know much else about you. Sometimes this is in a fair way, and sometimes it’s not.
I have not (yet) known myself to ever be negatively affected for speaking my mind in EA.
Same goes for me, despite not satisfying most of your bullet points, and I often comment with contrarian and controversial views, and am a leftist.
But I think different orgs might have very different approaches here. I took part in a residency and in some other activities organised by Czech EAs, and I made it to advanced stages of the hiring process of Rethink Priorities and some other orgs. I hold all of those in high regard, including those who ultimately rejected me, but there are many others who seem fishy in comparison, and who I can see taking my views as expressed on the forum into account.
I certainly didn’t mean to imply that if you don’t have one of those bullet points, you are going to be “blacklisted” or negatively affected as a result of speaking your mind. They just seemed like contributing factors for me, based on my experience. And yeah, I agree different people evaluate differently.
The problem goes beyond guardrails. Any attempts to reduce these conflicts of interest would have to contend with the extremely insular social scene in Berkeley. Since grantmakers frequently do not interact with many people outside of EA, and everyone in EA might end up applying for a grant from Open Phil, guardrails would significantly disrupt the social lives of grantmakers.
Let’s not forget that you can not just improperly favor romantic partners, but also just friends. The idea of stopping Open Phil from making grants to organizations where employees are close friends with (other) grantmakers is almost laughable because of how insular the social scene is—but that’s not at all normal for a grantmaking organization.
Even if Open Phil grantmakers separated themselves from the rest of the community, anyone who ever wanted to potentially become a grantmaker would have to do so as well because the community is so small. What if you become a grantmaker and your friend or romantic partner ends up applying for a grant?
In addition, many grants are socially evaluated at least partially, in my experience. Grantmakers have sometimes asked me what I think of people applying for grants, for example. This process will obviously favor friends of friends.
As such, the only way to fully remove conflicts of interest is likely to entail significant disruptions to the entire EA social scene (the one that involves everyone living/partying/working with the same very small group of people). I think that would be warranted, but that’s another post and I recognize I haven’t justified it fully here.
These dynamics are one reason (certainly not the only one) why I turned down an offer to be a part time grantmaker, choose not to live in Berkeley, and generally avoid dating within EA. Even if I cannot unilaterally remove these problems, I can avoid being part of them.
To be very clear: I am not saying “this can never be changed.” I am saying that it would require changing the EA social scene—that is, to somehow decentralize it. I am not sure how to do that well (rather than doing it poorly, or doing it in name only). But I increasingly believe it is likely to be necessary.
I appreciate you holding that the Bay Area EAs who “[all live/party/work] with the same very small group of people” should, umm, stop doing that. But until they do, do you think it’s worth it having very poor governance of large sums of money?
“very poor governance”
Flagging that this claim needs backing. How poorly governed are the actual dollars (not the relationships) at the end of the day? You decide
This is fair, though I stand behind my words.
I’m genuinely not understanding this. Do you think only Bay area people can manage large amounts of money well? Or that non EA people won’t manage it well? Or something else?
I’m saying the opposite, that the same small group shouldn’t continue managing everything (and specifically, grantmaking) if they are so prone to conflicts of interest with each other.
Thanks I get the point now.
I respect you for writing this comment.
This would be something I’d be uncomfortable writing under my name.
I have not (yet) known myself to ever be negatively affected for speaking my mind in EA. However, I know others who have. Some possible reasons for the difference:
My fundamental ethical beliefs are pretty similar to the most senior people.
On the EA Forum, I make almost extreme effort to make tight claims and avoid overclaiming (though I don’t always succeed). If I have vibes-based criticisms (I have plenty) I tend to keep them to people I trust.
I “know my audience:” I am good at determining how to say things such that they won’t be received poorly. This doesn’t mean “rhetoric,” it means being aware of the most common ways my audience might misinterpret my words or the intent behind them, and making a conscious effort to clearly avoid those misinterpretations.
Related to the above, I tend to “listen before I speak” in new environments. I avoid making sweeping claims before I know my audience and understand their perspective inside and out.
I’m a techy white man working in AI safety and I’m not a leftist, so I’m less likely to be typed by people as an “outsider.” I suspect this is mostly subconscious, except for the leftist part, where I think there are some community members who will consciously think you are harmful to the epistemic environment if they think you’re a leftist and don’t know much else about you. Sometimes this is in a fair way, and sometimes it’s not.
I’m very junior, but in comparison to even more junior people I have more “f*** you social capital” and “f*** you concrete achievements you cannot ignore”.
Same goes for me, despite not satisfying most of your bullet points, and I often comment with contrarian and controversial views, and am a leftist.
But I think different orgs might have very different approaches here. I took part in a residency and in some other activities organised by Czech EAs, and I made it to advanced stages of the hiring process of Rethink Priorities and some other orgs. I hold all of those in high regard, including those who ultimately rejected me, but there are many others who seem fishy in comparison, and who I can see taking my views as expressed on the forum into account.
I’m a “white” male too though.
I certainly didn’t mean to imply that if you don’t have one of those bullet points, you are going to be “blacklisted” or negatively affected as a result of speaking your mind. They just seemed like contributing factors for me, based on my experience. And yeah, I agree different people evaluate differently.
Thanks for sharing your perspective.