Hi Alex. It’s a great idea to have this AMA! Hopefully it helps raise more awareness of earning to give as a potential path to impact for more people.
Two questions that I’d be keen to get your views on, and which may be of interest to the community:
(1) How do you balance your earning to give/​effective giving commitments with your family commitments? (e.g. in my own experience, one’s partner may disapprove of or be stressed out by you giving >=10%, and of course with a mortgage/​kids things get even tougher)
(2) Would you say currently, the median EA should consider trying some E2G (or at least non-EA work while giving significantly) early on in their career?
The main considerations, as far as I see, relate to: (a) the EA labour market (where currently, demand for jobs outstrip supply—so chances of landing a job are low & counterfactual impact relative to next best hire is small); (b) whether money is the bottleneck for EA (it does seem so, at least for GHD/​AW—and importantly, you can’t always choose to work at the most effective charities but can choose to donate to them); and (c) miscellaneous issues like financial stability, building career capital, and ability to switch career paths (traditional work in finance/​consulting/​tech for 1-3 years of E2G seem to be stronger on all three counts, relative to the marginal EA job that a fresh grad is likely to land)
Would you say currently, the median EA should consider trying some E2G (or at least non-EA work while giving significantly) early on in their career?
That’s quite a cautious phrasing! Let me strengthen it a bit then respond to that:
As of 2024, should the median EA try some E2G (or at least non-EA work while giving significantly) early on in their career?
My thoughts on this now depend a fair bit on where you draw the boundaries of ‘EA’.
For the median EA survey taker, I pretty strongly lean ‘yes’ here. Full disclosure that I am moderately influenced by my partner’s experience of trying to get an ‘impactful’ job straight out of university, but I’ve seen a lot of others in similar spots, just they mostly aren’t married to EAs and they mostly bounce right out of the movement rather than writing it up.
For the median student or early-career EAG attendee in 2024, I am much less confident but lean no for ‘median’, my entirely guessed percentage would hover more around 35%. That’s a crowd which has roughly been selected for having the skills to contribute directly to important EA causes[1].
Somewhere in between is the actual audience of this post, EA forum readers. I don’t have a clear lean here, but I would note the following:
My understanding of my strengths and weaknesses today is not the same as it was 5 years ago, and it’s definitely not the same as it was when I graduated. I think this is a common way for people in their 30s to feel, and it makes committing ‘too early’ unlikely to work in my view.
You can short-circuit the first bullet to a degree by deferring to a wider group of mostly-older people. Trying to get a job ‘the normal way’ does this to a significant degree! The job market is not perfect, but if you engage it will make at least some effort to place you where you are best-suited.
The other classic-for-EAs way to beat that issue is to essentially defer to older EAs; 80k advisors, EAG admissions staff, people you meet through EAG or retreats, etc. This can work, but bear in mind that those people ultimately will not bear the consequences of mistaken advice, much less so than a firm which makes a mistake in hiring you[2]. Look for ways to confirm those recommendations that involve someone else having skin in the game before you make life-altering decisions.
An applicant might be rejected if:They do not seem well-placed to take impactful actions as a result of the event.... EAG is first and foremost a professional networking event.
I think young people really don’t always realise this, so to say it outright: bad hires are expensive. Even in countries like the UK/​US with minimal worker protections.PersonallyI knew this in the abstract but it wasn’t until I became a manager that I really ‘got’ this.
(1) I’m in strong agreement with worries over people leaving/​disengaging from EA due to applying for a huge number of jobs and getting disillusioned when not landing any. From my conversations with various EAs, this seems a genuine problem, and there are probably structural reasons for this: (a) the current EA job market (demand > supply); and (b) selection effects in terms of who gives advice (by definition, us EA folks at EA organizations giving advice on EA jobs, have been successful in landing a direct EA job, and may underrate the difficulties of doing so).
(2) On whether the average early career EA should try for E2G—I’m not sure about this. It’s true that they’ve been selected for, but they’re still fundamentally at a big disadvantage in terms of experience, and I’m seriously worried about a lot of selection into low career-capital but nominally EA roles that disadvantage them later on, both in terms of impact and financial security.
In any case, at EAGx Singapore last weekend, I did a talk to a crowd of mainly these early career EAs on having impact with and without an EA career, and I basically pitched trying for an EA job but also seriously considering impact by effective giving in a non-EA job as a Plan B. I think it’s especially relevant for LMIC EAs, who cannot move to the UK/​US for high-impact roles (or find it harder to do so).
How do you balance your earning to give/​effective giving commitments with your family commitments? (e.g. in my own experience, one’s partner may disapprove of or be stressed out by you giving >=10%, and of course with a mortgage/​kids things get even tougher)
To your last observation, I actually think this has gotten easier over the years. When I was younger I had so much uncertainty about my life/​career trajectory that I found it difficult to understand the marginal value of both spending and saving. What if I save too little and then turn down an opportunity to move abroad as a result? What if I save too much and then my interest in EA turns out to be a youthful fad? What if I need to spend more to network effectively?
It’s not that such uncertainty is totally gone, but in general I expect it does diminish as you get older. Allan Saldanhamade similar observations in his podcast[1].
My partner is independently very on board with EA, so I can’t speak much to challenges there. Our kids don’t know much about it, but as long as we’re appropriately planning for their futures and our retirement there is some sense in which it isn’t much to do with them. I do lean generous/​conservative in later life planning though; given the amount we’ve donated I would really hate to ever end up in a spot where I was leaning on my kids for financial support, even more than I expect most parents would.
Comes up at a few points, but e.g.: I don’t know if I would have taken the pledge right after university—there’s so much more uncertainty now, you don’t have jobs for life like you might have 30-40 years ago.
Hi Alex. It’s a great idea to have this AMA! Hopefully it helps raise more awareness of earning to give as a potential path to impact for more people.
Two questions that I’d be keen to get your views on, and which may be of interest to the community:
(1) How do you balance your earning to give/​effective giving commitments with your family commitments? (e.g. in my own experience, one’s partner may disapprove of or be stressed out by you giving >=10%, and of course with a mortgage/​kids things get even tougher)
(2) Would you say currently, the median EA should consider trying some E2G (or at least non-EA work while giving significantly) early on in their career?
The main considerations, as far as I see, relate to: (a) the EA labour market (where currently, demand for jobs outstrip supply—so chances of landing a job are low & counterfactual impact relative to next best hire is small); (b) whether money is the bottleneck for EA (it does seem so, at least for GHD/​AW—and importantly, you can’t always choose to work at the most effective charities but can choose to donate to them); and (c) miscellaneous issues like financial stability, building career capital, and ability to switch career paths (traditional work in finance/​consulting/​tech for 1-3 years of E2G seem to be stronger on all three counts, relative to the marginal EA job that a fresh grad is likely to land)
Cheers,
Joel
That’s quite a cautious phrasing! Let me strengthen it a bit then respond to that:
My thoughts on this now depend a fair bit on where you draw the boundaries of ‘EA’.
For the median EA survey taker, I pretty strongly lean ‘yes’ here. Full disclosure that I am moderately influenced by my partner’s experience of trying to get an ‘impactful’ job straight out of university, but I’ve seen a lot of others in similar spots, just they mostly aren’t married to EAs and they mostly bounce right out of the movement rather than writing it up.
For the median student or early-career EAG attendee in 2024, I am much less confident but lean no for ‘median’, my entirely guessed percentage would hover more around 35%. That’s a crowd which has roughly been selected for having the skills to contribute directly to important EA causes[1].
Somewhere in between is the actual audience of this post, EA forum readers. I don’t have a clear lean here, but I would note the following:
My understanding of my strengths and weaknesses today is not the same as it was 5 years ago, and it’s definitely not the same as it was when I graduated. I think this is a common way for people in their 30s to feel, and it makes committing ‘too early’ unlikely to work in my view.
You can short-circuit the first bullet to a degree by deferring to a wider group of mostly-older people. Trying to get a job ‘the normal way’ does this to a significant degree! The job market is not perfect, but if you engage it will make at least some effort to place you where you are best-suited.
The other classic-for-EAs way to beat that issue is to essentially defer to older EAs; 80k advisors, EAG admissions staff, people you meet through EAG or retreats, etc. This can work, but bear in mind that those people ultimately will not bear the consequences of mistaken advice, much less so than a firm which makes a mistake in hiring you[2]. Look for ways to confirm those recommendations that involve someone else having skin in the game before you make life-altering decisions.
E.g., from recent post:
An applicant might be rejected if: They do not seem well-placed to take impactful actions as a result of the event....
EAG is first and foremost a professional networking event.
I think young people really don’t always realise this, so to say it outright: bad hires are expensive. Even in countries like the UK/​US with minimal worker protections. Personally I knew this in the abstract but it wasn’t until I became a manager that I really ‘got’ this.
Thanks for the thoughts!
(1) I’m in strong agreement with worries over people leaving/​disengaging from EA due to applying for a huge number of jobs and getting disillusioned when not landing any. From my conversations with various EAs, this seems a genuine problem, and there are probably structural reasons for this: (a) the current EA job market (demand > supply); and (b) selection effects in terms of who gives advice (by definition, us EA folks at EA organizations giving advice on EA jobs, have been successful in landing a direct EA job, and may underrate the difficulties of doing so).
(2) On whether the average early career EA should try for E2G—I’m not sure about this. It’s true that they’ve been selected for, but they’re still fundamentally at a big disadvantage in terms of experience, and I’m seriously worried about a lot of selection into low career-capital but nominally EA roles that disadvantage them later on, both in terms of impact and financial security.
In any case, at EAGx Singapore last weekend, I did a talk to a crowd of mainly these early career EAs on having impact with and without an EA career, and I basically pitched trying for an EA job but also seriously considering impact by effective giving in a non-EA job as a Plan B. I think it’s especially relevant for LMIC EAs, who cannot move to the UK/​US for high-impact roles (or find it harder to do so).
To your last observation, I actually think this has gotten easier over the years. When I was younger I had so much uncertainty about my life/​career trajectory that I found it difficult to understand the marginal value of both spending and saving. What if I save too little and then turn down an opportunity to move abroad as a result? What if I save too much and then my interest in EA turns out to be a youthful fad? What if I need to spend more to network effectively?
It’s not that such uncertainty is totally gone, but in general I expect it does diminish as you get older. Allan Saldanha made similar observations in his podcast[1].
My partner is independently very on board with EA, so I can’t speak much to challenges there. Our kids don’t know much about it, but as long as we’re appropriately planning for their futures and our retirement there is some sense in which it isn’t much to do with them. I do lean generous/​conservative in later life planning though; given the amount we’ve donated I would really hate to ever end up in a spot where I was leaning on my kids for financial support, even more than I expect most parents would.
Comes up at a few points, but e.g.:
I don’t know if I would have taken the pledge right after university—there’s so much more uncertainty now, you don’t have jobs for life like you might have 30-40 years ago.