In general, I think that everyone’s situation is different and you shouldn’t base
actions on stuff like this too much.
Then, I do not know what else to base my actions on. I also don’t understand what you mean by “too much”. Do you have an example in mind?
I am trying to look for “similar” (big quotes) people and see how they did it. And copying actions and testing it out seems to be the “better” options I have. It might work, it might not work out in the end to a variety of reasons. But atleast there is one example instead of empty claims about how to get an EA job. Your example, Peters example and MSJs example tell me one thing, it requires persistence and a lot of time (2-5 years), hardwork, long time EA engagement, writing/researching, applying, criticizing, learning about EA etc… I now have an understanding that it would take 2-5 years (and that I need to be ready to accept this). This never hit home to me before today. So BIG THANK YOU for that.
And one more question:
Why were you so bent on getting an EA job? Why not ETG. You are a software engineer I see from your Linkedin.
P.S
I am asking you these as I am struggling myself with such questions.
I was never bent on getting an EA job. I wanted to test out many different jobs and see what fits me. I also wanted to have some impact. I didn’t write those two articles or criticize ACE and other organizations in order to increase my chances of getting a job at an EA org. I’m not sure that thought even crossed my mind. I did it because I wanted to have an impact.
When I was doing EA community building internship, my manager would ask me every week: “what have you learnt about your personal fit as an EA community builder?” Because that was the main goal. After he read my articles, he was like “I think you have a better fit for this kind of stuff”. And some other people said similar things. And I did feel that the research that I did had more potential to make an impact than other things I’ve tried. So I decided to try to do more research. I started applying for researcher jobs partly because I was running out of savings. But when I got the offer for the RP job, I still wasn’t sure if I should take it. What if they tell me to research something that I don’t feel is impactful or exciting? That happened during my ACE internship. I was considering living in CEEALAR and just doing research by myself instead.
I’m still unsure if I should be doing research. I feel like I’m having more expected impact but still not that much. When I talk to people at animal charities about what they are doing, it sounds much more impactful. Also, I don’t like looking at a screen all day, especially when it’s sunny outside. I’m set on doing research for now, but I’m thinking that maybe I should try to found a direct work charity or something some time in the future.
Why not ETG. You are a software engineer I see from your Linkedin.
Because I got bored of programming and I wasn’t that good at it. I also thought that I only have one life and it would be a shame if I never tried a different job. I considered trying out jobs like door-to-door salesman because they sounded fun, but since I also cared about impact, I applied for internships at EA orgs first.
Then, I do not know what else to base my actions on. I also don’t understand what you mean by “too much”.
I just happened to be a good enough personal fit to be a researcher despite being rejected from it at first. Maybe you are a better fit at something else. Being rejected in early hiring rounds is evidence that maybe this path is not for you. It’s not conclusive evidence, but it is evidence.
Do you like reading research? When you read it, do you spot mistakes? Are you a good writer? I think you can test your personal fit for being a researcher quite a bit by asking yourself questions like these. That’s one other thing you can use to make a decision on whether to persevere and try more to become a researcher, or whether to try something else. And different questions for different roles. And if you do decide you want to be a researcher, maybe you need to do something different than things I needed. E.g. a writing class or talking with other EAs more.
Another thing to base your actions on is experimenting—trying different things and seeing if you like them, and if you have an impact. I tried many different things to make an impact before (temporarily) settling on research. For example:
Making EA leaflets and distributing them in streets
Leafleting about animal welfare
Contributing to wikipedia articles on EA-related topics
Thinking super long and hard about where to donate
Convincing people who donate money to donate it to more effective charities
Going to activism events and trying to convince people to apply EA principles
Trying to start the EA movement in Lithuania
Organizing EA events in London
Etc.
When doing most of these things, I had a feeling that I’m not doing that much impact. So I stopped. Note that none of these required being employed at an EA org.
Thanks for the detailed response and taking the time once again.
You keep suggesting that “you had a feeling” about the impact. What does this mean? I guess it’s more than just a feeling like seeing how much money or lives or DALY’s what your doing counterfactualy adds.
I didn’t do cost-effectiveness estimates for each of the activity I tried but I had a feeling of how such estimates would have turned out if I tried to do them. There is nothing special about this, everyone has such intuitions. E.g., organizing EA events in Lithuania was stressful and required a lot of work. Despite that, I felt that few if any people will change anything based on what I said to them. I felt that the main accomplishment was possibly convincing one person to donate something like $2,000 a year to AMF rather than to some other charity. In contrast, after writing one article, I felt that there was a decent chance that animal advocates might help millions or billions of animals that otherwise would not have been helped. Writing that article took less time and was less stressful than organizing EA events in Lithuania. Based on stuff like this, I decided that I should write articles. Note that someone who had a better personal fit for being a community builder and worse fit for being a researcher might have had an opposite experience. But this kind of stuff is also based on luck so the evidence that experimenting provides is not conclusive.
Thank You for the detailed answer.
Then, I do not know what else to base my actions on. I also don’t understand what you mean by “too much”. Do you have an example in mind?
I am trying to look for “similar” (big quotes) people and see how they did it. And copying actions and testing it out seems to be the “better” options I have. It might work, it might not work out in the end to a variety of reasons. But atleast there is one example instead of empty claims about how to get an EA job. Your example, Peters example and MSJs example tell me one thing, it requires persistence and a lot of time (2-5 years), hardwork, long time EA engagement, writing/researching, applying, criticizing, learning about EA etc… I now have an understanding that it would take 2-5 years (and that I need to be ready to accept this). This never hit home to me before today. So BIG THANK YOU for that.
And one more question:
Why were you so bent on getting an EA job? Why not ETG. You are a software engineer I see from your Linkedin.
P.S I am asking you these as I am struggling myself with such questions.
I was never bent on getting an EA job. I wanted to test out many different jobs and see what fits me. I also wanted to have some impact. I didn’t write those two articles or criticize ACE and other organizations in order to increase my chances of getting a job at an EA org. I’m not sure that thought even crossed my mind. I did it because I wanted to have an impact.
When I was doing EA community building internship, my manager would ask me every week: “what have you learnt about your personal fit as an EA community builder?” Because that was the main goal. After he read my articles, he was like “I think you have a better fit for this kind of stuff”. And some other people said similar things. And I did feel that the research that I did had more potential to make an impact than other things I’ve tried. So I decided to try to do more research. I started applying for researcher jobs partly because I was running out of savings. But when I got the offer for the RP job, I still wasn’t sure if I should take it. What if they tell me to research something that I don’t feel is impactful or exciting? That happened during my ACE internship. I was considering living in CEEALAR and just doing research by myself instead.
I’m still unsure if I should be doing research. I feel like I’m having more expected impact but still not that much. When I talk to people at animal charities about what they are doing, it sounds much more impactful. Also, I don’t like looking at a screen all day, especially when it’s sunny outside. I’m set on doing research for now, but I’m thinking that maybe I should try to found a direct work charity or something some time in the future.
Because I got bored of programming and I wasn’t that good at it. I also thought that I only have one life and it would be a shame if I never tried a different job. I considered trying out jobs like door-to-door salesman because they sounded fun, but since I also cared about impact, I applied for internships at EA orgs first.
I just happened to be a good enough personal fit to be a researcher despite being rejected from it at first. Maybe you are a better fit at something else. Being rejected in early hiring rounds is evidence that maybe this path is not for you. It’s not conclusive evidence, but it is evidence.
Do you like reading research? When you read it, do you spot mistakes? Are you a good writer? I think you can test your personal fit for being a researcher quite a bit by asking yourself questions like these. That’s one other thing you can use to make a decision on whether to persevere and try more to become a researcher, or whether to try something else. And different questions for different roles. And if you do decide you want to be a researcher, maybe you need to do something different than things I needed. E.g. a writing class or talking with other EAs more.
Another thing to base your actions on is experimenting—trying different things and seeing if you like them, and if you have an impact. I tried many different things to make an impact before (temporarily) settling on research. For example:
Making EA leaflets and distributing them in streets
Leafleting about animal welfare
Contributing to wikipedia articles on EA-related topics
Thinking super long and hard about where to donate
Convincing people who donate money to donate it to more effective charities
Going to activism events and trying to convince people to apply EA principles
Trying to start the EA movement in Lithuania
Organizing EA events in London
Etc.
When doing most of these things, I had a feeling that I’m not doing that much impact. So I stopped. Note that none of these required being employed at an EA org.
Thanks for the detailed response and taking the time once again.
You keep suggesting that “you had a feeling” about the impact. What does this mean? I guess it’s more than just a feeling like seeing how much money or lives or DALY’s what your doing counterfactualy adds.
I didn’t do cost-effectiveness estimates for each of the activity I tried but I had a feeling of how such estimates would have turned out if I tried to do them. There is nothing special about this, everyone has such intuitions. E.g., organizing EA events in Lithuania was stressful and required a lot of work. Despite that, I felt that few if any people will change anything based on what I said to them. I felt that the main accomplishment was possibly convincing one person to donate something like $2,000 a year to AMF rather than to some other charity. In contrast, after writing one article, I felt that there was a decent chance that animal advocates might help millions or billions of animals that otherwise would not have been helped. Writing that article took less time and was less stressful than organizing EA events in Lithuania. Based on stuff like this, I decided that I should write articles. Note that someone who had a better personal fit for being a community builder and worse fit for being a researcher might have had an opposite experience. But this kind of stuff is also based on luck so the evidence that experimenting provides is not conclusive.
I would appreciate an explanation, when you downvote something. Thanks. :)