I think it’s kind of weird that the bar is no longer “<0 karma” but “quick and thorough rejection”. I didn’t even see the article until this whole thing came up. People are allowed to think articles you don’t like have merit, it’s one of the benefits of hidden voting.
I can imagine why someone would upvote that. But overall I think it was an article I wouldn’t recommend most people spend time on.
It feels like you want there to be some harsher punishment/censorship/broader discussion here. Is that the case?
I think it’s kind of weird that the bar is no longer “<0 karma” but “quick and thorough rejection”.
This doesn’t strike me as weird. It is reasonable that people would react strongly to information suggesting that a position enjoys moderate-to-considerable support in the community.
Let’s suppose someone posted content equivalent to the infamous Bostrom listserv message today. I doubt (m)any people of color would walk away feeling comfortable being in this community merely because the post ended up with <0 karma. Information suggesting moderate-to-considerable support in the community would be very alarming to them, and for good reason! They would want to see quick and thorough rejection, at a bare minimum, in order to feel safe here.
I’m not expressing a view that Mr. Parr’s posts were of the same nature as the listserv message containing the slur. Where they are on the continuum from appropriate content to listserv-equivalent is likely a crux for many in this conversation, so my point here is to illustrate that whether you think “<0 karma” is enough likely depends on where you place Mr. Parr’s posts on that continuum.
I take your (and others’) argument to be that the negative score showed the forum “worked as it should” and that the community in some holistic sense rejected the post’s claims. That argument is very weak if it is based solely on the score being slightly negative (since that could be obtained just by 51% of votes). The argument is strong if the negative score is strong and signals robust rejection. Roughly, the voting pattern was:
Group A—early rejection, −14 score at least
Group B—subsequent support, +38 score at least (possible selection effect, unknown)
Group C—later rejection, −44 score at least (strong selection effect from David’s tweet)
Around 40% of vote points were supportive, without adjusting for Group C’s selection effect (again, very rough). That’s a way higher fraction than I would have expected (I would have guessed maybe 5%, and hoped for less). I agree people are allowed to like posts I don’t like. But this pattern suggests a much higher proportion of the forum support views which I personally think are hot garbage. I’m not saying anything should happen as a result of this. This is just another instance of a reason for me to move away from the EA community. It may be such a reason for others too.
Do you want to discuss it? I can understand value people would have taken from the post even while disagreeing with its general thrust. Also it’s pretty hard for those people to suggest why they supported it if that’s gonna tar them with being a racist, so it’s possible they have reasons I can’t guess.
I guess there is the possibility of brigading though that always seems less likely to me than people seem to think it is.
It also seems plausible that people saw it as some kind of free speech bellwether, though that seems mistaken to me (you can just downvote the bad stuff and upvote the good).
I think it’s kind of weird that the bar is no longer “<0 karma” but “quick and thorough rejection”. I didn’t even see the article until this whole thing came up. People are allowed to think articles you don’t like have merit, it’s one of the benefits of hidden voting.
I can imagine why someone would upvote that. But overall I think it was an article I wouldn’t recommend most people spend time on.
It feels like you want there to be some harsher punishment/censorship/broader discussion here. Is that the case?
This doesn’t strike me as weird. It is reasonable that people would react strongly to information suggesting that a position enjoys moderate-to-considerable support in the community.
Let’s suppose someone posted content equivalent to the infamous Bostrom listserv message today. I doubt (m)any people of color would walk away feeling comfortable being in this community merely because the post ended up with <0 karma. Information suggesting moderate-to-considerable support in the community would be very alarming to them, and for good reason! They would want to see quick and thorough rejection, at a bare minimum, in order to feel safe here.
I’m not expressing a view that Mr. Parr’s posts were of the same nature as the listserv message containing the slur. Where they are on the continuum from appropriate content to listserv-equivalent is likely a crux for many in this conversation, so my point here is to illustrate that whether you think “<0 karma” is enough likely depends on where you place Mr. Parr’s posts on that continuum.
I take your (and others’) argument to be that the negative score showed the forum “worked as it should” and that the community in some holistic sense rejected the post’s claims. That argument is very weak if it is based solely on the score being slightly negative (since that could be obtained just by 51% of votes). The argument is strong if the negative score is strong and signals robust rejection. Roughly, the voting pattern was:
Group A—early rejection, −14 score at least
Group B—subsequent support, +38 score at least (possible selection effect, unknown)
Group C—later rejection, −44 score at least (strong selection effect from David’s tweet)
Around 40% of vote points were supportive, without adjusting for Group C’s selection effect (again, very rough). That’s a way higher fraction than I would have expected (I would have guessed maybe 5%, and hoped for less). I agree people are allowed to like posts I don’t like. But this pattern suggests a much higher proportion of the forum support views which I personally think are hot garbage. I’m not saying anything should happen as a result of this. This is just another instance of a reason for me to move away from the EA community. It may be such a reason for others too.
Yeah maybe?
Do you want to discuss it? I can understand value people would have taken from the post even while disagreeing with its general thrust. Also it’s pretty hard for those people to suggest why they supported it if that’s gonna tar them with being a racist, so it’s possible they have reasons I can’t guess.
I guess there is the possibility of brigading though that always seems less likely to me than people seem to think it is.
It also seems plausible that people saw it as some kind of free speech bellwether, though that seems mistaken to me (you can just downvote the bad stuff and upvote the good).