Bostrom was essentially still a kid (age ~23) when he wrote the 1996 email.
I agree with Jason. I don’t think being 23 years old means that you’re “essentially still a kid”.
If we want to judge young adults for their positive achievements, it makes sense to hold a symmetric attitude and judge them for their mistakes as well (though one could take the perspective that we shouldn’t judge anyone for making mistakes, but that’s a separate argument).
Fluid intelligence is generally considered to peak between one’s late teens to mid 20s, and the majority of measured cognitive abilities either decline or only very slightly rise after the age of 23. If we use cognitive ability as the marker of adulthood, rater than life experience, one could even make the case that 23 year olds are more “adult” than any other age group.
(Though of course I might be biased, because I’m 23 years old right now.)
Thanks. :) I mainly had in mind something more like wisdom, rather than intelligence. Social norms on particular topics are often not what you would expect by armchair reasoning. In many cases, you have to directly encounter people expressing those norms, or see news stories / hear gossip about people who have run afoul of those norms, to know what they are. Nerds who are very interested in science/math/theoretical things may be less likely to learn about these norms than the average person, despite having high fluid intelligence. (BTW, this is one reason I’ve updated toward thinking reading some amount of news is important.) I imagine that people told Bostrom that what he said in 1996 wasn’t cool, and if so, that was a useful learning experience for him. The only problem was that it was written down for posterity to see.
I think cultural context is also relevant to judging these things. Most young people today (even most nerds) know that what Bostrom said (even though it was in the context of giving an example of what you shouldn’t say) would elicit strong negative reactions, given how much media attention these things receive. I assume this was less obvious to nerds in the 1990s (though it was probably fairly predictable even back then).
For what it’s worth, my fifth-grade class was assigned to read The Great Gilly Hopkins, which includes a tasteless joke about the N-word (though in the context of suggesting the person making it was being an asshole). And in high school, in 2005, when reading Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, we used the N-word in relation to Jim without any problems, because that’s the word Twain used. The degree of sensitivity around these things has changed a lot in the last 10-20 years.
Most young people today (even most nerds) know that what Bostrom said (even though it was in the context of giving an example of what you shouldn’t say) would elicit strong negative reactions, given how much media attention these things receive. I assume this was less obvious to nerds in the 1990s (though it was probably fairly predictable even back then).
It is perhaps important to note that in the original email, Bostrom quite directly says that he is aware of the social norm about not saying what he said. In fact, that was one of the main points of the email: that saying something true in a blunt manner about a controversial topic is likely to be viewed as offensive. If Bostrom learned anything—and indeed, he apologized within 24 hours—it was that saying something like that can be inadvisable even among friends.
In general, I don’t think old people generally have a stronger understanding of social norms than younger people. Old people will of course have more experience to draw from, and their mannerisms will have gone through more trial and error. In that sense, I agree: old people are often wiser. But the frontier of cultural norms are generally driven by young people, and old people are often left out of that conversation.
It is not uncommon to hear young people say they’re shocked by their older relatives who are ignorant or only superficially aware of social norms that became widespread in the last ten years, e.g. stating one’s pronouns while introducing oneself. To the extent that we are judging people on their understanding of current social norms, we should probably hold young adults to the strictest standards of any group.
Interesting point! I hadn’t even heard of “stating one’s pronouns while introducing oneself”, although maybe that’s because I rarely meet anyone in person.
As you said, there’s a tension between young people having the cutting edge of norms versus older people knowing a greater quantity of norms, even though some may be stale.
I think the obsession among young people with political correctness increased dramatically in the last 10 years, and it was barely a discussion topic when I was in pre-college school. Usually it seemed to be teachers and administrators trying to inculcate anti-bullying lessons into the students. At the anti-bullying workshops, students often rolled their eyes. So I’m not sure how true it would have been to say that students were at the vanguard of social norms in my school. (I went to a pretty liberal public school in upstate New York.)
I may also be generalizing too much from my own past self, since I was often called “oblivious” at Bostrom’s 23-year age and wasn’t that well informed about scandals, maybe because I thought they were too gossip-y and not as important as “serious” topics. (Now I realize that gossip is actually very important.)
If Bostrom learned anything—and indeed, he apologized within 24 hours—it was that saying something like that can be inadvisable even among friends.
Yeah. He also said he only “recently” began to believe that speaking flippantly is unsuccessful, which I think jibes with my hypothesis of him being fairly oblivious. Many people would consider the ineffectiveness of speaking flippantly so obvious as to not be worth mentioning as any kind of realization.
I agree with Jason. I don’t think being 23 years old means that you’re “essentially still a kid”.
If we want to judge young adults for their positive achievements, it makes sense to hold a symmetric attitude and judge them for their mistakes as well (though one could take the perspective that we shouldn’t judge anyone for making mistakes, but that’s a separate argument).
Fluid intelligence is generally considered to peak between one’s late teens to mid 20s, and the majority of measured cognitive abilities either decline or only very slightly rise after the age of 23. If we use cognitive ability as the marker of adulthood, rater than life experience, one could even make the case that 23 year olds are more “adult” than any other age group.
(Though of course I might be biased, because I’m 23 years old right now.)
Thanks. :) I mainly had in mind something more like wisdom, rather than intelligence. Social norms on particular topics are often not what you would expect by armchair reasoning. In many cases, you have to directly encounter people expressing those norms, or see news stories / hear gossip about people who have run afoul of those norms, to know what they are. Nerds who are very interested in science/math/theoretical things may be less likely to learn about these norms than the average person, despite having high fluid intelligence. (BTW, this is one reason I’ve updated toward thinking reading some amount of news is important.) I imagine that people told Bostrom that what he said in 1996 wasn’t cool, and if so, that was a useful learning experience for him. The only problem was that it was written down for posterity to see.
I think cultural context is also relevant to judging these things. Most young people today (even most nerds) know that what Bostrom said (even though it was in the context of giving an example of what you shouldn’t say) would elicit strong negative reactions, given how much media attention these things receive. I assume this was less obvious to nerds in the 1990s (though it was probably fairly predictable even back then).
For what it’s worth, my fifth-grade class was assigned to read The Great Gilly Hopkins, which includes a tasteless joke about the N-word (though in the context of suggesting the person making it was being an asshole). And in high school, in 2005, when reading Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, we used the N-word in relation to Jim without any problems, because that’s the word Twain used. The degree of sensitivity around these things has changed a lot in the last 10-20 years.
It is perhaps important to note that in the original email, Bostrom quite directly says that he is aware of the social norm about not saying what he said. In fact, that was one of the main points of the email: that saying something true in a blunt manner about a controversial topic is likely to be viewed as offensive. If Bostrom learned anything—and indeed, he apologized within 24 hours—it was that saying something like that can be inadvisable even among friends.
In general, I don’t think old people generally have a stronger understanding of social norms than younger people. Old people will of course have more experience to draw from, and their mannerisms will have gone through more trial and error. In that sense, I agree: old people are often wiser. But the frontier of cultural norms are generally driven by young people, and old people are often left out of that conversation.
It is not uncommon to hear young people say they’re shocked by their older relatives who are ignorant or only superficially aware of social norms that became widespread in the last ten years, e.g. stating one’s pronouns while introducing oneself. To the extent that we are judging people on their understanding of current social norms, we should probably hold young adults to the strictest standards of any group.
Interesting point! I hadn’t even heard of “stating one’s pronouns while introducing oneself”, although maybe that’s because I rarely meet anyone in person.
As you said, there’s a tension between young people having the cutting edge of norms versus older people knowing a greater quantity of norms, even though some may be stale.
I think the obsession among young people with political correctness increased dramatically in the last 10 years, and it was barely a discussion topic when I was in pre-college school. Usually it seemed to be teachers and administrators trying to inculcate anti-bullying lessons into the students. At the anti-bullying workshops, students often rolled their eyes. So I’m not sure how true it would have been to say that students were at the vanguard of social norms in my school. (I went to a pretty liberal public school in upstate New York.)
I may also be generalizing too much from my own past self, since I was often called “oblivious” at Bostrom’s 23-year age and wasn’t that well informed about scandals, maybe because I thought they were too gossip-y and not as important as “serious” topics. (Now I realize that gossip is actually very important.)
Yeah. He also said he only “recently” began to believe that speaking flippantly is unsuccessful, which I think jibes with my hypothesis of him being fairly oblivious. Many people would consider the ineffectiveness of speaking flippantly so obvious as to not be worth mentioning as any kind of realization.