In the same vein, comparing female genital mutilation to forced circumcision is… let’s say ignorant of the effects of FGM.
This lecture by Eric Clopper has a decent analysis of the differences between male circumcision and FGM. Male circumcision removes more erogenous tissue and more nerve endings than most forms of FGM.
Not to say that I am against this cause but this is a false equivalency between physiology and pleasure. What ratio of total erogenous tissue is removed in each procedure, and what impact does it have on ability to achieve an orgasm, as well as pleasure? Is it still higher for male circumcision relative to FGM along these measurements?
… which arguably gives circumcised males the benefit of longer sex ;-)
More seriously: FGM can cause severe bleeding and problems urinating, and later cysts, infections, as well as complications in childbirth and increased risk of newborn deaths (WHO).
I stand by my point, even after all the downvotes: claiming that FGM is comparable in harm to male circumcision is an offense to all the FGM survivors out there.
+ 1 to the point that it doesn’t really make sense to compare FGM and male circumcision. I support bodily autonomy and lean towards believing that parents should not circumcise male infants. I’m also not claiming that there are no negative effects to male circumcision. And as Henry said, some forms of FGM are indeed quite minor (a symbolic ‘nicking’ or small cut).
Some types involve cutting out the clitoris (which is more equivalent to the whole penis than to the foreskin); other types involve sewing up the vagina. Because of its relative rarity I’m not sure it qualifies as a sensible EA cause area, but I think the horror and outcry against it seems very merited and it makes sense that more countries have outlawed it than have outlawed male circumcision (though as I say, I’d tentatively support making that illegal also and don’t want to ignore the fact that that’s also a harm).
On a meta level, I’m surprised by how unpopular Sjlver and DukeGartzea’s comments are in this discussion relative to others’. It doesn’t seem that controversial to argue that women face more violence, particularly of certain types, than men (though it’s fair to argue the other side, of course).
On a meta level, I’m surprised by how unpopular Sjlver and DukeGartzea’s comments are in this discussion relative to others’.
For me it was seeing arguments made from emotion (“It is very clear that violence against men is less of an issue than violence against women”, no evidence provided) when responding to comments that contained data on men being the majority of victims of violence. When challenged they performed a bait-and-switch by offering stats for sexual assault (which is indeed more common in women, and a deeply serious issue, but is a subset of assault generally).
Agreed that FGM is horrifying beyond belief. But the flippancy from Sjilver around male circumcision and its purported sex benefits to men (which are not backed by the evidence), accompanied by a winky face, were enough to earn a downvote from me.
I could completely agree with your argument, but I see a lack of criticism of various comments, where one of the well-known dog whistles used by those who deny the existence of particular violence against women is used.
Likewise, extract the fact that the majority of homicide victims are men, deliberately ignoring the reasons for this violence and their differences, data that I contribute not using Wikipedia pages but global studies on homicide from the United Nations. The comment where I added that data, by the way, got several negative votes originally. I find that worrying enough, and it is worse coming from a community like EA, where these basic things should be already mostly established
If we are going to criticise Sjilver answers, as you say “arguments made from emotion”, it seems -to me- more serious to criticise responses that originate in a supposed rationalization argumentation and are still biased and, the worst thing of all of this in my humble opinion, the instrumentalization of deaths that are used as a weapon against the fact that there is particular violence against women that does not exist in the other way.
I think this was a thoughtful comment and I also think that Sliver and Duke’s comments seem normal and reasonable.
Also the deeper issue here isn’t violence but the abuse, mistreatment, control, of other people. For prosaic and sad reasons, I expect women to be systemically much more vulnerable to this than men.
It’s not the physical act, it’s the fear, the powerlessness.
(Note that none of these thoughts alone suggest this is an EA cause area.)
More seriously: FGM can cause severe bleeding and problems urinating, and later cysts, infections, as well as complications in childbirth and increased risk of newborn deaths (WHO).
Other than complications in childbirth, malecircumcisioncanalsocause all of these complications. According to Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who is herself a victim of FGM, boys being circumcised in Africa have a higher risk of complications compared to girls subjected to FGM. Circumcisions/mutilations in Africa are often performed in unsanitary conditions, which is true for both boys and girls subjected to genital mutilation.
To understand the seriousness of the mutilations, I personally consider that we must focus on the reason that leads to them. Are you religious? Is it cultural? Is it a medical reason? and so on.
FGM is distinguished (beyond the forms in which it occurs) in that there are no medical reasons for doing it, nor does it have any health benefits for women. In particular, quite the opposite, since it leads to numerous problems such as infections, complications in childbirth and in sexual relations, and more (1). It is also given for a cultural reason, not only is it “socially accepted” in their society and therefore the norm to follow but also ideas and beliefs of femininity associated with it. For example, it is considered that a genitally mutilated woman has an easier time finding a husband and will remain pure until marriage (2). There is also the fact that in some of these cultures and societies the clitoris is considered a male organ or non-feminine, therefore it is essential for women to have it removed for their own good. The reason for the existence of this mutilation is purely a product of the existence of gender, or what in social sciences is also called the sex-gender system (3)
Mutilation is understood as a violent act itself and we tend to talk about female genital mutilation, and in cases like Question Mark bring up male genital mutilation. But we leave aside the mutilations of intersex people, genital mutilations without any consent carried out legally and that do not have any benefit in terms of health for the person to whom it is done (4.1, 4.2). This kind of mutilation is also the result of the previously mentioned sex-gender system. Specifically, it is its application in our society and culture (5). Understanding these three apparently so different forms of mutilation as a product of the same thing is necessary in terms of understanding their motives and giving them an effective solution.
FGM is distinguished (beyond the forms in which it occurs) in that there are no medical reasons for doing it, nor does it have any health benefits for women
if anti-FGM campaigners and organizations such as the WHO continue to play the “no health benefits” card as a way of deflecting comparisons to male circumcision, it will not be long before medically-trained supporters of the practice in other countries begin to do the necessary research. …
I suggest, therefore, that by repeating the mantra—in nearly every article focused on female genital cutting—that “FGM has no health benefits,” those who oppose such cutting are sending the wrong signal. The mantra implies that if FGM did have health benefits, it wouldn’t be so bad after all.
But that isn’t what opponents really think. Regardless of health consequences, they see nontherapeutic genital cutting of female minors as contrary to their best interests, propped up by questionable social norms that should themselves be challenged and changed.
I do not think that the argument of “no health benefits” is used in contrast to male genital mutilation, since it is known that the benefits are small and still today in many countries it is done without the person’s permission, breaking their right to bodily autonomy as happens with neonatal circumcision.
Also today in many societies and cultures, male genital mutilation is given apart to the medical and health system, which influences an increase in infections and problems related to sexual health.
But I agree that repeating that mantra in a decontextualised way is harmful. The way in which I have tried to use it is to contrast it with the mutilations of intersex people, who are operated on these days in medical centres under the idea and dogma “it is for their health” when really that is a lie, there are not benefits in it.
This lecture by Eric Clopper has a decent analysis of the differences between male circumcision and FGM. Male circumcision removes more erogenous tissue and more nerve endings than most forms of FGM.
Not to say that I am against this cause but this is a false equivalency between physiology and pleasure. What ratio of total erogenous tissue is removed in each procedure, and what impact does it have on ability to achieve an orgasm, as well as pleasure? Is it still higher for male circumcision relative to FGM along these measurements?
… which arguably gives circumcised males the benefit of longer sex ;-)
More seriously: FGM can cause severe bleeding and problems urinating, and later cysts, infections, as well as complications in childbirth and increased risk of newborn deaths (WHO).
I stand by my point, even after all the downvotes: claiming that FGM is comparable in harm to male circumcision is an offense to all the FGM survivors out there.
+ 1 to the point that it doesn’t really make sense to compare FGM and male circumcision.
I support bodily autonomy and lean towards believing that parents should not circumcise male infants. I’m also not claiming that there are no negative effects to male circumcision. And as Henry said, some forms of FGM are indeed quite minor (a symbolic ‘nicking’ or small cut).
That said, other forms of FGM are...horrifying and just seem way worse than male circumcision. I’m going to drop the wikipedia article here—considered yourself content-warned. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_mutilation#Types
Some types involve cutting out the clitoris (which is more equivalent to the whole penis than to the foreskin); other types involve sewing up the vagina. Because of its relative rarity I’m not sure it qualifies as a sensible EA cause area, but I think the horror and outcry against it seems very merited and it makes sense that more countries have outlawed it than have outlawed male circumcision (though as I say, I’d tentatively support making that illegal also and don’t want to ignore the fact that that’s also a harm).
On a meta level, I’m surprised by how unpopular Sjlver and DukeGartzea’s comments are in this discussion relative to others’. It doesn’t seem that controversial to argue that women face more violence, particularly of certain types, than men (though it’s fair to argue the other side, of course).
For me it was seeing arguments made from emotion (“It is very clear that violence against men is less of an issue than violence against women”, no evidence provided) when responding to comments that contained data on men being the majority of victims of violence. When challenged they performed a bait-and-switch by offering stats for sexual assault (which is indeed more common in women, and a deeply serious issue, but is a subset of assault generally).
Agreed that FGM is horrifying beyond belief. But the flippancy from Sjilver around male circumcision and its purported sex benefits to men (which are not backed by the evidence), accompanied by a winky face, were enough to earn a downvote from me.
I could completely agree with your argument, but I see a lack of criticism of various comments, where one of the well-known dog whistles used by those who deny the existence of particular violence against women is used.
Likewise, extract the fact that the majority of homicide victims are men, deliberately ignoring the reasons for this violence and their differences, data that I contribute not using Wikipedia pages but global studies on homicide from the United Nations. The comment where I added that data, by the way, got several negative votes originally. I find that worrying enough, and it is worse coming from a community like EA, where these basic things should be already mostly established
If we are going to criticise Sjilver answers, as you say “arguments made from emotion”, it seems -to me- more serious to criticise responses that originate in a supposed rationalization argumentation and are still biased and, the worst thing of all of this in my humble opinion, the instrumentalization of deaths that are used as a weapon against the fact that there is particular violence against women that does not exist in the other way.
I think this was a thoughtful comment and I also think that Sliver and Duke’s comments seem normal and reasonable.
Also the deeper issue here isn’t violence but the abuse, mistreatment, control, of other people. For prosaic and sad reasons, I expect women to be systemically much more vulnerable to this than men.
It’s not the physical act, it’s the fear, the powerlessness.
(Note that none of these thoughts alone suggest this is an EA cause area.)
Not necessarily. Male circumcision may actually cause premature ejaculation in some men.
Other than complications in childbirth, male circumcision can also cause all of these complications. According to Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who is herself a victim of FGM, boys being circumcised in Africa have a higher risk of complications compared to girls subjected to FGM. Circumcisions/mutilations in Africa are often performed in unsanitary conditions, which is true for both boys and girls subjected to genital mutilation.
I guess if FGM had some possible sexual benefits, that would make it acceptable?
I would like to state some points to clarify:
To understand the seriousness of the mutilations, I personally consider that we must focus on the reason that leads to them. Are you religious? Is it cultural? Is it a medical reason? and so on.
FGM is distinguished (beyond the forms in which it occurs) in that there are no medical reasons for doing it, nor does it have any health benefits for women. In particular, quite the opposite, since it leads to numerous problems such as infections, complications in childbirth and in sexual relations, and more (1). It is also given for a cultural reason, not only is it “socially accepted” in their society and therefore the norm to follow but also ideas and beliefs of femininity associated with it. For example, it is considered that a genitally mutilated woman has an easier time finding a husband and will remain pure until marriage (2). There is also the fact that in some of these cultures and societies the clitoris is considered a male organ or non-feminine, therefore it is essential for women to have it removed for their own good. The reason for the existence of this mutilation is purely a product of the existence of gender, or what in social sciences is also called the sex-gender system (3)
Mutilation is understood as a violent act itself and we tend to talk about female genital mutilation, and in cases like Question Mark bring up male genital mutilation. But we leave aside the mutilations of intersex people, genital mutilations without any consent carried out legally and that do not have any benefit in terms of health for the person to whom it is done (4.1, 4.2). This kind of mutilation is also the result of the previously mentioned sex-gender system. Specifically, it is its application in our society and culture (5). Understanding these three apparently so different forms of mutilation as a product of the same thing is necessary in terms of understanding their motives and giving them an effective solution.
A small aside on this, which I found interesting:
I do not think that the argument of “no health benefits” is used in contrast to male genital mutilation, since it is known that the benefits are small and still today in many countries it is done without the person’s permission, breaking their right to bodily autonomy as happens with neonatal circumcision.
Also today in many societies and cultures, male genital mutilation is given apart to the medical and health system, which influences an increase in infections and problems related to sexual health.
But I agree that repeating that mantra in a decontextualised way is harmful. The way in which I have tried to use it is to contrast it with the mutilations of intersex people, who are operated on these days in medical centres under the idea and dogma “it is for their health” when really that is a lie, there are not benefits in it.