I don’t personally view your comment as racist, but it feels like you’re trying to understand why someone might, so here’s a take.
Here’s a thing that I think is true: your comment came across as dismissive because it didn’t engage with the substance of what had been said. Instead, it seemed to dismiss someone’s substantive comments on the basis of their command of English. Consequently, it came across as a personal attack and specifically as dismissively disrespectful. (To be clear, I’m not saying this was your intention in making the comment; here I’m making a claim about how it came across, or at least how it will have come across to some readers)
Now let’s just focus on it as a dismissal for a moment (that is, let’s just focus on the role it plays as a dismissal despite the fact that this wasn’t the role you were intending it to play). This sort of dismissal might strike some as racist for two reasons:
1. Because there is a (very imperfect) connection between race and native grasp of English, this sort of strategy for dismissal of a person’s substantive views is likely to disproportionally impact people of certain races and is likely to reinforce existing factors that mean such people are dismissed/disrespected/not-adequately-heard. (This is perhaps particularly crucial given that English is one of a small number of languages that is disproportionately important for having power)
2. Because of 1, this strategy is (I suspect) actually deliberately used in many cases as a form of racist dismissal. At the very least, many people will perceive that this is so. Consequently, statements like this take on a certain sort of cultural meaning and carry with them certain consequences (for example, if someone has been racistly dismissed in this way many times before, it will be more hurtful to them to face this sort of dismissal again, and so the sentence comes to be particularly harmful to people who have experienced racist attacks).
Given 1 and 2, this sort of statement occupies a certain place in a set of norms around discourse: it is a member of a class of statements that reinforces racial disparities, that harms people disproportionally from certain races, and that is used as a dogwhistle to describe racist dismissal as something else. I think this does roughly fit the second definition of racism that you point to (or, at least, the more complete version of this that recognises that systemtic racism can be about not just policies or systems but also about the role played in broader social norms).
For myself, I buy at least some of the above, and think it might mean it was worth commenting on the way that your commenting could be upsetting to some. I wouldn’t personally chose to describe the comment as racism, because I think this is too easily read as a comment on a person’s intention and virtue, rather than some sort of comment about the place of the statement within a broader societal context. And as I’m confident your intentions here were good, I personally would avoid this description.
So I do understand this is not your actual position and you’re trying to explain someone else’s position. Nonetheless I’m going to try to argue against it directly:
Because of 1, this strategy is (I suspect) actually deliberately used in many cases as a form of racist dismissal...for example, if someone has been racistly dismissed in this way many times before, it will be more hurtful to them to face this sort of dismissal again
As a non-native speaker, I think I have literally never been dismissed in this way[1]. So I suspect you’re setting up an imaginary problem. But I only have anecdotes to go off of rather than data; if someone has survey data I’m willing to update quickly.
I think this does roughly fit the second definition of racism that you point to (or, at least, the more complete version of this...[emphasis mine]
Here’s where I’m coming from: I think you are bending over backwards to support what I view to be a blatantly false claim. In modern left-leaning American culture, “racist” is one of the worst things you can call someone, I’m surprised so many people would stand for me being called that based on such scant evidence, and I’m currently reflecting on whether it makes sense for me to continue to devote so much of my life to being in a community (see EDIT [2]) that finds this type of thing permissible.
For myself, I buy at least some of the above, and think it might mean it was worth commenting on the way that your commenting could be upsetting to some.
I’m not surprised my comment is upsetting to the intended target (what I perceive as poor reading comprehension by people who know better), and/or to people who might choose to take offense on others’ behalf. If anybody genuinely feels unwelcome for object-level race or ethnic-related reasons based on my comment, I’m deeply sorry and I’m happy to apologize further publicly if someone in that position messages me about it and/or messages one of the forum mods to relay the message to me.
And as I’m confident your intentions here were good, I personally would avoid this description.
Thank you. To be clear, I do appreciate both your confidence and your reticence.
EDIT: A month + in, no one has ever messaged me saying that they felt unwelcome for object-level race- or ethnic-related reasons. This feels like confirmatory evidence that privileged native speakers in fact are doing the political move of “feeling offended on others’ behalf” instead of being willing to acknowledge (and/or defend) their own mediocrity. (See also anti-Asian rules passed in educational etc institutions in the name of “diversity”, which I’m pretty sure benefits white people much more than other ethnic minorities)
And to be clear I’ve experienced very blatant (though ultimately harmless) racism not too infrequnetly, as an argumentative visibly nonwhite person on the ’net.
EDIT: I’m afraid that came off too dramatically. I do view being involved in the community as a community pretty differently than being involved professionally. I still intend to work on EA projects etc even if I reduce eg EA Forum commenting or going to social events dramatically, and personal unpleasantness is not going to stop me from working in EA unless it’s like >10-100x this comment thread daily. (And even if I stop having jobs in EA organizations for other reasons I’d likely still intend to be effectively altruistic with my time and other resources)
I’m not really up for a long exchange here, as I find this sort of thing draining. So I hope you’ll forgive me if I don’t reply further after this message.
As a non-native speaker, I think I have literally never been dismissed in this way. So I suspect you’re setting up an imaginary problem. But I only have anecdotes to go off of rather than data; if someone has survey data I’m willing to update quickly.
In text, at least, your English is notably better than the average native speaker, so I’m not convinced you’re representative here. Even setting aside your grasp of English, your obvious high intelligence would, I suspect, make it pretty hard to pull off dismissing you in this way, as would your willingness to speak your views. So I’m not convinced that the fact that you haven’t experienced this means that others haven’t.
That said, I accept that I have no actual data to point to.
In modern left-leaning American culture, “racist” is one of the worst things you can call someone,
I actually think this is importantly false (or, at least, importantly incomplete as a characterisation). Modern left-leaning culture really does distinguish between racism in the two senses that you quoted earlier. And when it comes to structural racism, saying that someone is racist (in the sense of having acted in a way that perpetuates and buys into racist structural norms) just isn’t a terrible thing to call someone.
I’ve heard multiple people saying that they think everyone is racist (ie. socialised into problematic norms that perpetuate racist discrimination) and also that they are themselves of course racist (because they too have been socialised in this way).
Structural racism is seen as a big deal by the left. It’s seen as worth correcting the influence of this on ourselves. But it’s not seen as a terrible accusation to acknowledge that a particular statement or behaviour was structurally racist (indeed, saying this can be helpful for allowing people to make progress in challenging the ways that structural racism has impacted their thinking).
Of course, a statement that someone is racist might be ambiguous, between the terrible reading and the structural reading, which is why I wouldn’t personally use it in the latter way. So I do wish we lived in a world where people wouldn’t call you racist for the things in this thread.
I’m surprised so many people would stand for me being called that based on such scant evidence
Setting aside my just-stated wish, my guess is that no-one intended to call you racist in the terrible sense. And, at the very least, my guess is that the reason people “stand for” Akhil’s comment is that they do not see it as an accusation of racism in the terrible sense.
I myself did not read it this way, despite (and I would actually say, because of) very much being steeped in the contemporary left. This is partly because Akhil commented on your comment rather than on you as an individual, and partly because I think the structural, rather than the terrible, claim is the more plausible accusation here (the accusation being something like: the statement is given meaning by a set of structural norms that developed because of racist attitudes and that perpetuates racial disadvantage). So I guess I felt like the charitable read of Akhil was that he wasn’t calling you racist in the terrible sense but rather was making a claim about structural racism.
For what it’s worth, I think it would be a real loss to the community if you chose to be less involved.
I don’t personally view your comment as racist, but it feels like you’re trying to understand why someone might, so here’s a take.
Here’s a thing that I think is true: your comment came across as dismissive because it didn’t engage with the substance of what had been said. Instead, it seemed to dismiss someone’s substantive comments on the basis of their command of English. Consequently, it came across as a personal attack and specifically as dismissively disrespectful. (To be clear, I’m not saying this was your intention in making the comment; here I’m making a claim about how it came across, or at least how it will have come across to some readers)
Now let’s just focus on it as a dismissal for a moment (that is, let’s just focus on the role it plays as a dismissal despite the fact that this wasn’t the role you were intending it to play). This sort of dismissal might strike some as racist for two reasons:
1. Because there is a (very imperfect) connection between race and native grasp of English, this sort of strategy for dismissal of a person’s substantive views is likely to disproportionally impact people of certain races and is likely to reinforce existing factors that mean such people are dismissed/disrespected/not-adequately-heard. (This is perhaps particularly crucial given that English is one of a small number of languages that is disproportionately important for having power)
2. Because of 1, this strategy is (I suspect) actually deliberately used in many cases as a form of racist dismissal. At the very least, many people will perceive that this is so. Consequently, statements like this take on a certain sort of cultural meaning and carry with them certain consequences (for example, if someone has been racistly dismissed in this way many times before, it will be more hurtful to them to face this sort of dismissal again, and so the sentence comes to be particularly harmful to people who have experienced racist attacks).
Given 1 and 2, this sort of statement occupies a certain place in a set of norms around discourse: it is a member of a class of statements that reinforces racial disparities, that harms people disproportionally from certain races, and that is used as a dogwhistle to describe racist dismissal as something else. I think this does roughly fit the second definition of racism that you point to (or, at least, the more complete version of this that recognises that systemtic racism can be about not just policies or systems but also about the role played in broader social norms).
For myself, I buy at least some of the above, and think it might mean it was worth commenting on the way that your commenting could be upsetting to some. I wouldn’t personally chose to describe the comment as racism, because I think this is too easily read as a comment on a person’s intention and virtue, rather than some sort of comment about the place of the statement within a broader societal context. And as I’m confident your intentions here were good, I personally would avoid this description.
So I do understand this is not your actual position and you’re trying to explain someone else’s position. Nonetheless I’m going to try to argue against it directly:
As a non-native speaker, I think I have literally never been dismissed in this way[1]. So I suspect you’re setting up an imaginary problem. But I only have anecdotes to go off of rather than data; if someone has survey data I’m willing to update quickly.
Here’s where I’m coming from: I think you are bending over backwards to support what I view to be a blatantly false claim. In modern left-leaning American culture, “racist” is one of the worst things you can call someone, I’m surprised so many people would stand for me being called that based on such scant evidence, and I’m currently reflecting on whether it makes sense for me to continue to devote so much of my life to being in a community (see EDIT [2]) that finds this type of thing permissible.
I’m not surprised my comment is upsetting to the intended target (what I perceive as poor reading comprehension by people who know better), and/or to people who might choose to take offense on others’ behalf. If anybody genuinely feels unwelcome for object-level race or ethnic-related reasons based on my comment, I’m deeply sorry and I’m happy to apologize further publicly if someone in that position messages me about it and/or messages one of the forum mods to relay the message to me.
Thank you. To be clear, I do appreciate both your confidence and your reticence.
EDIT: A month + in, no one has ever messaged me saying that they felt unwelcome for object-level race- or ethnic-related reasons. This feels like confirmatory evidence that privileged native speakers in fact are doing the political move of “feeling offended on others’ behalf” instead of being willing to acknowledge (and/or defend) their own mediocrity. (See also anti-Asian rules passed in educational etc institutions in the name of “diversity”, which I’m pretty sure benefits white people much more than other ethnic minorities)
See also this Twitter poll https://twitter.com/LinchZhang/status/1708625779800867126
And to be clear I’ve experienced very blatant (though ultimately harmless) racism not too infrequnetly, as an argumentative visibly nonwhite person on the ’net.
EDIT: I’m afraid that came off too dramatically. I do view being involved in the community as a community pretty differently than being involved professionally. I still intend to work on EA projects etc even if I reduce eg EA Forum commenting or going to social events dramatically, and personal unpleasantness is not going to stop me from working in EA unless it’s like >10-100x this comment thread daily. (And even if I stop having jobs in EA organizations for other reasons I’d likely still intend to be effectively altruistic with my time and other resources)
I’m not really up for a long exchange here, as I find this sort of thing draining. So I hope you’ll forgive me if I don’t reply further after this message.
In text, at least, your English is notably better than the average native speaker, so I’m not convinced you’re representative here. Even setting aside your grasp of English, your obvious high intelligence would, I suspect, make it pretty hard to pull off dismissing you in this way, as would your willingness to speak your views. So I’m not convinced that the fact that you haven’t experienced this means that others haven’t.
That said, I accept that I have no actual data to point to.
I actually think this is importantly false (or, at least, importantly incomplete as a characterisation). Modern left-leaning culture really does distinguish between racism in the two senses that you quoted earlier. And when it comes to structural racism, saying that someone is racist (in the sense of having acted in a way that perpetuates and buys into racist structural norms) just isn’t a terrible thing to call someone.
I’ve heard multiple people saying that they think everyone is racist (ie. socialised into problematic norms that perpetuate racist discrimination) and also that they are themselves of course racist (because they too have been socialised in this way).
Structural racism is seen as a big deal by the left. It’s seen as worth correcting the influence of this on ourselves. But it’s not seen as a terrible accusation to acknowledge that a particular statement or behaviour was structurally racist (indeed, saying this can be helpful for allowing people to make progress in challenging the ways that structural racism has impacted their thinking).
Of course, a statement that someone is racist might be ambiguous, between the terrible reading and the structural reading, which is why I wouldn’t personally use it in the latter way. So I do wish we lived in a world where people wouldn’t call you racist for the things in this thread.
Setting aside my just-stated wish, my guess is that no-one intended to call you racist in the terrible sense. And, at the very least, my guess is that the reason people “stand for” Akhil’s comment is that they do not see it as an accusation of racism in the terrible sense.
I myself did not read it this way, despite (and I would actually say, because of) very much being steeped in the contemporary left. This is partly because Akhil commented on your comment rather than on you as an individual, and partly because I think the structural, rather than the terrible, claim is the more plausible accusation here (the accusation being something like: the statement is given meaning by a set of structural norms that developed because of racist attitudes and that perpetuates racial disadvantage). So I guess I felt like the charitable read of Akhil was that he wasn’t calling you racist in the terrible sense but rather was making a claim about structural racism.
For what it’s worth, I think it would be a real loss to the community if you chose to be less involved.