I definitely agree with this. Here are a bunch of ideas that are vaguely in line with this that I imagine a good critique could be generated from (not endorsing any of the ideas, but I think they could be interesting to explore):
Welfare is multi-dimensional / using some kind of multi-dimensional analysis captures important information that a pure $/lives saved approach misses.
Relatedly, welfare is actually really culturally dependent, so using a single metric misses important features.
Globalism/neoliberalism are bad in the longterm for some variety of reasons (cultural loss that makes human experience less rich and that’s really bad? Capitalism causes more harms than benefits in the long run? Things along those lines).
Some change is really expensive and takes a really long time and a really indirect route to get to, but it would be good to invest in anyway even if the benefits aren’t obvious immediately. (I think this is similar to what people mean when they argue for “systemic” change as an argument against EA).
I think that one issue is that lots of the left just isn’t that utilitarian, so unless utilitarianism itself is up for debate, it seems hard to know how seriously people in the EA community will take lefty critiques (though I think that utilitarianism is worth debating!). E.g. “nobody’s free until everyone is free” is fundamentally not a utilitarian claim.
That doesn’t seem quite right—negative utilitarians would still prefer marginal improvements even if all suffering didn’t end (or in this case, a utilitarian might prefer many become free even if all didn’t become free). The sentiment is interesting because it doesn’t acknowledge marginal states that utilitarians are happy to compare against ideal states, or worse marginal states.
Got it, I think you’re quite right on one reading. I should have been clearer about what I meant, which is something like
there is a defensible reading of that claim which maps to some negative utilitarian claim (without necessarily being a central example)
furthermore I expect many issuers of such sentiments are motivated by basically pretheoretic negative utilitarian insight
E.g. imagine a minor steelification (which loses the aesthetic and rhetorical strength) like “nobody’s positive wellbeing (implicitly stemming from their freedom) can/should be celebrated until everyone has freedom (implicitly necessary to escape negative wellbeing)” which is consistent with some kind of lexical negative utilitarianism.
You’re right that if we insist that ‘freedom’ be interpreted identically in both places (parsimonious, granted, though I think the symmetry is better explained by aesthetic/rhetorical concerns) another reading explicitly neglects the marginal benefit of lifting merely some people out of illiberty. Which is only consistent with utilitarianism if we use an unusual aggregation theory (i.e. minimising) - though I have also seen this discussed under negative utilitarianism.
Anecdata: as someone whose (past) political background and involvement (waning!) is definitely some kind of lefty, and who, if it weren’t for various x- and s-risks, would plausibly consider some form (my form, naturally!) of lefty politics to be highly important (if not highly tractable), my reading of that claim at least goes something like the first one. I might not be representative in that respect.
I have no doubt that many people expressing that kind of sentiment would still celebrate marginal ‘releases’, while considering it wrong to celebrate further the fruits of such freedom, ignoring others’ lack of freedom.
Yeah, I definitely think that also many people from left-leaning spaces who come to EA also become sympathetic to suffering focused work in my experience, which also seems consistent with this.
I definitely agree with this. Here are a bunch of ideas that are vaguely in line with this that I imagine a good critique could be generated from (not endorsing any of the ideas, but I think they could be interesting to explore):
Welfare is multi-dimensional / using some kind of multi-dimensional analysis captures important information that a pure $/lives saved approach misses.
Relatedly, welfare is actually really culturally dependent, so using a single metric misses important features.
Globalism/neoliberalism are bad in the longterm for some variety of reasons (cultural loss that makes human experience less rich and that’s really bad? Capitalism causes more harms than benefits in the long run? Things along those lines).
Some change is really expensive and takes a really long time and a really indirect route to get to, but it would be good to invest in anyway even if the benefits aren’t obvious immediately. (I think this is similar to what people mean when they argue for “systemic” change as an argument against EA).
I think that one issue is that lots of the left just isn’t that utilitarian, so unless utilitarianism itself is up for debate, it seems hard to know how seriously people in the EA community will take lefty critiques (though I think that utilitarianism is worth debating!). E.g. “nobody’s free until everyone is free” is fundamentally not a utilitarian claim.
Minor nitpick: “nobody’s free until everyone is free” is precisely a (negative) utilitarian claim (albeit with unusual wording)
That doesn’t seem quite right—negative utilitarians would still prefer marginal improvements even if all suffering didn’t end (or in this case, a utilitarian might prefer many become free even if all didn’t become free). The sentiment is interesting because it doesn’t acknowledge marginal states that utilitarians are happy to compare against ideal states, or worse marginal states.
Got it, I think you’re quite right on one reading. I should have been clearer about what I meant, which is something like
there is a defensible reading of that claim which maps to some negative utilitarian claim (without necessarily being a central example)
furthermore I expect many issuers of such sentiments are motivated by basically pretheoretic negative utilitarian insight
E.g. imagine a minor steelification (which loses the aesthetic and rhetorical strength) like “nobody’s positive wellbeing (implicitly stemming from their freedom) can/should be celebrated until everyone has freedom (implicitly necessary to escape negative wellbeing)” which is consistent with some kind of lexical negative utilitarianism.
You’re right that if we insist that ‘freedom’ be interpreted identically in both places (parsimonious, granted, though I think the symmetry is better explained by aesthetic/rhetorical concerns) another reading explicitly neglects the marginal benefit of lifting merely some people out of illiberty. Which is only consistent with utilitarianism if we use an unusual aggregation theory (i.e. minimising) - though I have also seen this discussed under negative utilitarianism.
Anecdata: as someone whose (past) political background and involvement (waning!) is definitely some kind of lefty, and who, if it weren’t for various x- and s-risks, would plausibly consider some form (my form, naturally!) of lefty politics to be highly important (if not highly tractable), my reading of that claim at least goes something like the first one. I might not be representative in that respect.
I have no doubt that many people expressing that kind of sentiment would still celebrate marginal ‘releases’, while considering it wrong to celebrate further the fruits of such freedom, ignoring others’ lack of freedom.
That makes sense to me.
Yeah, I definitely think that also many people from left-leaning spaces who come to EA also become sympathetic to suffering focused work in my experience, which also seems consistent with this.