What are examples of exceptional people who have unusually high amounts of self-compassion? It seems like most of the impressive people I can think of who a) did important stuff in the world and b) where there is strong evidence of their internal feelings (e.g. autobiographies or other detailed biographies/interview) are pretty hard on themselves (John Stuart Mill, Maurice Hilleman, Elon Musk, people I know of in EA).
One of course needs to also look at people who achieve the least (or otherwise have bad lives) to avoid selecting on the dependent variable.
I agree you want to avoid selecting on the dependent variable, but I think for the reference class of 80k listeners you primarily want to look at people who accomplish a bit (e.g. people who only do some EA stuff) vs people who accomplish much more.
I agree, I hypothesize most people of his time period, intelligence and social class are a) less self-critical and b) have substantially lower positive moral impact.
This doesn’t take away from your question, but I’d like to state that I don’t think these people* are good representatives of “did important stuff in the world” (if they belong in this category at all).
*except Hilleman, though I haven’t heard of him before.
Who do you think are better examples of a) and b)? I agree that the search process of “impressive people I can think of” isn’t the best reference class to find a representative sample, if that’s what you’re getting at.
I’m not sure I can think of anyone in b), mostly because I don’t think (auto)biographies would be a reliable description of mental states. On the other hand, I don’t think Elon Musk, or most people in EA, belong in a) at all (regarding the latter—it’s not that I think EAs are all failures or something, I just don’t think many of us have anything to show for our efforts yet). I didn’t think Mill was in that group either, but after reading a bit about him I agree with you.
But taking your assumption that autobiographies are a good source on this, I just went over Wikipedia’s list of autobiographies and created the following, non-exhaustive and extremely biased, list of people who I think did important things. I’m not sure about some of them, and since I haven’t read any of their autobiographies, I can’t say if they were hard on themselves.
Here they are (ordered like they are in the list):
Thanks for the list! I’m not sure all autobiographies are created alike, I wouldn’t necessarily trust the autobiographies of people who are substantially less scrupulous than Mill.
I’m confused why Elon isn’t on your list. But maybe your bar is just much higher than mine? For me, having >200B is just a lot, if that money is donated you can do a lot of good.
regarding the latter—it’s not that I think EAs are all failures or something, I just don’t think many of us have anything to show for our efforts yet)
I think I mostly agree. I still think the experiences of people I know are relevant (and I have relatively high fidelity knowledge on), in terms of both emotional states and something like projections of future impact.
I’m confused why Elon isn’t on your list. But maybe your bar is just much higher than mine? For me, having >200B is just a lot, if that money is donated you can do a lot of good.
But has he done any good? Amassing money for himself isn’t, in my view, doing something important. As I see it most of the good he produced is through innovation by some of his companies, but they all have competition, so I’m not sure what the counterfactual impact of that is. On the other hand, he has done quite a lot of negative things, from sexual harassment, to bad labor practices, to hyping crypto and NFTs, to outrageous views and actions regarding COVID.
In other words, I think Musk is a terrible role model, and it bothers me that he’s so (relatively) popular in EA circles.
What are examples of exceptional people who have unusually high amounts of self-compassion? It seems like most of the impressive people I can think of who a) did important stuff in the world and b) where there is strong evidence of their internal feelings (e.g. autobiographies or other detailed biographies/interview) are pretty hard on themselves (John Stuart Mill, Maurice Hilleman, Elon Musk, people I know of in EA).
That’s interesting. My personal observation is that the most productive/successful people I know are more self-compassionate on average.
One of course needs to also look at people who achieve the least (or otherwise have bad lives) to avoid selecting on the dependent variable.
Among that group lack of self-compassion seems to have very high prevalence.
(If I recall John Stuart Mill is famous or having a severe mental breakdown at 20 and radically adjusting his world-view in order to make life more liveable: https://ps.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ps.54.10.1347 .)
I agree you want to avoid selecting on the dependent variable, but I think for the reference class of 80k listeners you primarily want to look at people who accomplish a bit (e.g. people who only do some EA stuff) vs people who accomplish much more.
I agree, I hypothesize most people of his time period, intelligence and social class are a) less self-critical and b) have substantially lower positive moral impact.
This doesn’t take away from your question, but I’d like to state that I don’t think these people* are good representatives of “did important stuff in the world” (if they belong in this category at all).
*except Hilleman, though I haven’t heard of him before.
Who do you think are better examples of a) and b)? I agree that the search process of “impressive people I can think of” isn’t the best reference class to find a representative sample, if that’s what you’re getting at.
I’m not sure I can think of anyone in b), mostly because I don’t think (auto)biographies would be a reliable description of mental states. On the other hand, I don’t think Elon Musk, or most people in EA, belong in a) at all (regarding the latter—it’s not that I think EAs are all failures or something, I just don’t think many of us have anything to show for our efforts yet). I didn’t think Mill was in that group either, but after reading a bit about him I agree with you.
But taking your assumption that autobiographies are a good source on this, I just went over Wikipedia’s list of autobiographies and created the following, non-exhaustive and extremely biased, list of people who I think did important things. I’m not sure about some of them, and since I haven’t read any of their autobiographies, I can’t say if they were hard on themselves.
Here they are (ordered like they are in the list):
Salvador Dalí
Claude Monet
Gerolamo Cardano
Voltaire
Jean-Jacques Rousseau
Benjamin Franklin
Leo Tolstoy
Albert Schweitzer
Charles Darwin
David Hume
Simone de Beauvoir
Richard Feynman
Nelson Mandela
Thomas Jefferson
Nikola Tesla
Mahatma Gandhi
Albert Einstein
Thanks for the list! I’m not sure all autobiographies are created alike, I wouldn’t necessarily trust the autobiographies of people who are substantially less scrupulous than Mill.
I’m confused why Elon isn’t on your list. But maybe your bar is just much higher than mine? For me, having >200B is just a lot, if that money is donated you can do a lot of good.
I think I mostly agree. I still think the experiences of people I know are relevant (and I have relatively high fidelity knowledge on), in terms of both emotional states and something like projections of future impact.
But has he done any good? Amassing money for himself isn’t, in my view, doing something important. As I see it most of the good he produced is through innovation by some of his companies, but they all have competition, so I’m not sure what the counterfactual impact of that is. On the other hand, he has done quite a lot of negative things, from sexual harassment, to bad labor practices, to hyping crypto and NFTs, to outrageous views and actions regarding COVID.
In other words, I think Musk is a terrible role model, and it bothers me that he’s so (relatively) popular in EA circles.
“Important” is not meant to be synonymous with “good.” Sorry if my earlier wording was unclear.