The general reason I disagree-voted is that this post seems to make a leap from:
A) ‘We have less solid evidence for non-humans experiencing qualia than we do for humans’
to
B) ‘We can be certain (some) non-humans don’t experience qualia, and it’s appropriate to behave towards them as if they don’t.’
I agree with A), but I don’t think your argument can support B).
I certainly wouldn’t eat anything that passes the mirror test
evidence that the fish has empathy towards other fish parents
Fish have very different approaches to rearing young than mammals. Many fish species do not spend much effort caring for young, and probably don’t meaningfully think of themselves as parents. I think this experiment stacks the deck against fish by expecting them to respond as mammals do.
If the linked study gets independently replicated, with good controls, I’ll definitely stop eating cleaner fish and will probably stop eating fish in general.
I really don’t expect it to replicate. If you place a fish in front of a mirror, and it has a mark, its behavior won’t be significantly different from being placed in front of a fish with the same mark, especially if the mark isn’t made to resemble a parasite and it’s the first time the fish sees a mirror. I’d be happy to bet on this.
Fish have very different approaches to rearing young than mammals
That was an experiment some people agreed would prove them wrong if it didn’t show empathy, but if there aren’t really detectable feelings that fish has towards fish children, the experiment won’t show results one way or the other, so I don’t think it’d be stacking the deck against fish. Are there any situations in which you expect fish to feel empathy, and predict it will show up in an experiment of this sort?
I couldn’t find independent replications, but the study was preceded by twosimilar tests by the same team, which address concerns about weaknesses in the study setup.
I’m a bit confused by your second point. If the fish didn’t have detectable feelings towards fish children, wouldn’t you think this was evidence that fish don’t experience empathy? Or would you think it was no evidence one way or the other?
If it’s no evidence, then it can’t ‘prove people wrong’ who currently think that fish feel empathy. But it seems like you think it could prove people wrong. So I’m confused...!
Are there any situations in which you expect fish to feel empathy?
Maybe; I’m a bit unsure. I don’t know much about fish behaviour or evolution.
Yep, I was able to find studies by the same people.
The experiment I suggested in the post isn’t “does fish have detectable feelings towards fish children”, it’s “does fish have more of feelings similar to those it has towards its children when it sees other fish parents with their children than when it sees just other fish children”. Results one way or another would be evidence about fish experiencing empathy, and it would be strong enough for me to stop eating fish. If fish doesn’t feel differently in presence of its children, the experiment wouldn’t provide evidence one way or another.
In that case, I think you probably don’t think that people who currently believe fish experience empathy could be proven wrong by this experiment (since you think it wouldn’t be providing evidence one way or another)...?
If fish indeed don’t feel anything towards their children (which is not what at least some people who believe fish experience empathy think), then this experiment won’t prove them wrong. But if you know of a situation where fish do experience empathy, a similarly designed experiment can likely be conducted, which, if we make different predictions, would provide evidence one way or another. Are there situations where you think fish feel empathy?
The general reason I disagree-voted is that this post seems to make a leap from: A) ‘We have less solid evidence for non-humans experiencing qualia than we do for humans’ to B) ‘We can be certain (some) non-humans don’t experience qualia, and it’s appropriate to behave towards them as if they don’t.’
I agree with A), but I don’t think your argument can support B).
Some fish, such as the cleaner wrasse, pass the mirror test.
Fish have very different approaches to rearing young than mammals. Many fish species do not spend much effort caring for young, and probably don’t meaningfully think of themselves as parents. I think this experiment stacks the deck against fish by expecting them to respond as mammals do.
If the linked study gets independently replicated, with good controls, I’ll definitely stop eating cleaner fish and will probably stop eating fish in general.
I really don’t expect it to replicate. If you place a fish in front of a mirror, and it has a mark, its behavior won’t be significantly different from being placed in front of a fish with the same mark, especially if the mark isn’t made to resemble a parasite and it’s the first time the fish sees a mirror. I’d be happy to bet on this.
That was an experiment some people agreed would prove them wrong if it didn’t show empathy, but if there aren’t really detectable feelings that fish has towards fish children, the experiment won’t show results one way or the other, so I don’t think it’d be stacking the deck against fish. Are there any situations in which you expect fish to feel empathy, and predict it will show up in an experiment of this sort?
I couldn’t find independent replications, but the study was preceded by two similar tests by the same team, which address concerns about weaknesses in the study setup.
I’m a bit confused by your second point. If the fish didn’t have detectable feelings towards fish children, wouldn’t you think this was evidence that fish don’t experience empathy? Or would you think it was no evidence one way or the other?
If it’s no evidence, then it can’t ‘prove people wrong’ who currently think that fish feel empathy. But it seems like you think it could prove people wrong. So I’m confused...!
Maybe; I’m a bit unsure. I don’t know much about fish behaviour or evolution.
Yep, I was able to find studies by the same people.
The experiment I suggested in the post isn’t “does fish have detectable feelings towards fish children”, it’s “does fish have more of feelings similar to those it has towards its children when it sees other fish parents with their children than when it sees just other fish children”. Results one way or another would be evidence about fish experiencing empathy, and it would be strong enough for me to stop eating fish. If fish doesn’t feel differently in presence of its children, the experiment wouldn’t provide evidence one way or another.
Ah okay, thanks, that helps me understand.
In that case, I think you probably don’t think that people who currently believe fish experience empathy could be proven wrong by this experiment (since you think it wouldn’t be providing evidence one way or another)...?
If fish indeed don’t feel anything towards their children (which is not what at least some people who believe fish experience empathy think), then this experiment won’t prove them wrong. But if you know of a situation where fish do experience empathy, a similarly designed experiment can likely be conducted, which, if we make different predictions, would provide evidence one way or another. Are there situations where you think fish feel empathy?