I think this is a huge and under-recognised problem with migration—that the very best people who could have made the biggest difference transforming their country end up leaving, mostly doing far less transformative and “cruxy” work in western countries. I live in Uganda and have seen the same phenomenon.
The strongest pro-immigration argument is usually that we should support migration because remittances are so important and the good done by that can overcome the harms of “brain drain”. If the very best people leave though, I think the negative effect can be enormous.
Also see my comment here on this article by Lauren, along very similar lines.
“The best people leave, people that could be innovating, inspiring, leading and starting the best businesses that could grow the country. When you skim off the top 1%, you can “replace” them by training others, but you can’t replace their natural brilliant traits that could have led them to transform their countries.”
Nick I have one comment every three days (I have been a baaaad forum member) but I am here to answer your rebuttal honestly and truthfully.)
I come from a fairly rich background, in my country I would be in the top 0.5%, but I come from a developing country, that means that while I can afford pretty much everything, everyone around me is living on that edge between living and surviving, some are barely surviving as well.
My father was one of the first people to bring USAID donations to my country, specifically water treatment donations, and they built several water treatment plants that cleaned water to a drinkable level, our specification system is fairly outdated and I am unsure about the international ones. But like the whole course of water treatment. Those plants today are abandoned, there were not enough funds or the funds got mismanaged and those facilities are now rotting. My father moved in Western Europe in the early 2010s, because he was so depressed with the situation here, when he left, he had a company here that was running fairly well, we were doing great, he went to western Europe to cut grass and start all over again because he was done with how things were done here.
I am not as depressed as him, but in the past year I spent over 500 hours trying to deal with littering and improper waste disposal by local companies in my city. I invested my own money, time and health, because roaming dump sites is not the safest thing to do. In those 500 hours I have around 75 reports for various offences, out of those 75 reports the people in charge acted on 3 or 4.
For food safety, I have contacted my agency over 80 times, they have now blacklisted my number and don’t return my mails because the chain I am reporting has every one of the inspectors in their pockets.
In university a grant was stolen from us (the students), albeit with my colleagues and it was not my idea originally, but I worked on writing that grant, I spent time and effort, only to have my faculty misappropriate the funds, submit a false report, and present a falsified research document that we did the research. We didn’t even do any research, they probably manufactured the whole paper they presented.
Now tell me, why should I care about these people when they don’t even give me the time of their day, I have spent countless of hours on civic engagement, trying to make this place a better place to live, only to get spit in my face by corrupt officials. Why not go to the west and be a plumber, at least I will get paid what I deserve and know that “hey I have some rights”.
I am at a breaking point where I would rather be neck deep in shit in the west, than live leisurely here because it sucks. Also the job opportunities suck, being in agriculture, as an agronomist my salary would be near the minimum wage, while my software/engineering/any degree peers are way above that. It’s not about the money it’s about the recognition, although even if I decided to become a big time farmer, the main issues that I would face are pollution and corruption.
Sorry if this feels too raw and boring at times, I am a stream of consciousness on this platform and godspeed to you.
Thanks so so much for this insight and sharing, yes it’s raw but not boring in the slightest and I think it’s exactly the kind of thing we need to hear on the forum here.
What do you think immigration policies should be from your country?
Ouch that’s rough. I honestly think every Westerner working in global poverty/health should have to spend a month living in a low-trust society. The corruption and nepotism/tribalism I saw every day were astonishing to my sheltered eyes. It makes me wonder how any overseas org can accurately assess their impact, given the challenges in tracking money and goods, and confirming if they actually make it to their intended recipients.
I think this is a huge and under-recognised problem with migration—that the very best people who could have made the biggest difference transforming their country end up leaving, mostly doing far less transformative and “cruxy” work in western countries. I live in Uganda and have seen the same phenomenon.
The strongest pro-immigration argument is usually that we should support migration because remittances are so important and the good done by that can overcome the harms of “brain drain”. If the very best people leave though, I think the negative effect can be enormous.
Also see my comment here on this article by Lauren, along very similar lines.
“The best people leave, people that could be innovating, inspiring, leading and starting the best businesses that could grow the country. When you skim off the top 1%, you can “replace” them by training others, but you can’t replace their natural brilliant traits that could have led them to transform their countries.”
https://www.laurenpolicy.com/p/why-brain-drain-isnt-something-we
This issue was also discussed a little in the comments about my wee piece here.
https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/9TnGxtSjjdpeufaqs/is-nigerian-nurse-emigration-really-a-win-win-critique-of-a
Nick I have one comment every three days (I have been a baaaad forum member) but I am here to answer your rebuttal honestly and truthfully.)
I come from a fairly rich background, in my country I would be in the top 0.5%, but I come from a developing country, that means that while I can afford pretty much everything, everyone around me is living on that edge between living and surviving, some are barely surviving as well.
My father was one of the first people to bring USAID donations to my country, specifically water treatment donations, and they built several water treatment plants that cleaned water to a drinkable level, our specification system is fairly outdated and I am unsure about the international ones. But like the whole course of water treatment. Those plants today are abandoned, there were not enough funds or the funds got mismanaged and those facilities are now rotting. My father moved in Western Europe in the early 2010s, because he was so depressed with the situation here, when he left, he had a company here that was running fairly well, we were doing great, he went to western Europe to cut grass and start all over again because he was done with how things were done here.
I am not as depressed as him, but in the past year I spent over 500 hours trying to deal with littering and improper waste disposal by local companies in my city. I invested my own money, time and health, because roaming dump sites is not the safest thing to do. In those 500 hours I have around 75 reports for various offences, out of those 75 reports the people in charge acted on 3 or 4.
For food safety, I have contacted my agency over 80 times, they have now blacklisted my number and don’t return my mails because the chain I am reporting has every one of the inspectors in their pockets.
In university a grant was stolen from us (the students), albeit with my colleagues and it was not my idea originally, but I worked on writing that grant, I spent time and effort, only to have my faculty misappropriate the funds, submit a false report, and present a falsified research document that we did the research. We didn’t even do any research, they probably manufactured the whole paper they presented.
Now tell me, why should I care about these people when they don’t even give me the time of their day, I have spent countless of hours on civic engagement, trying to make this place a better place to live, only to get spit in my face by corrupt officials. Why not go to the west and be a plumber, at least I will get paid what I deserve and know that “hey I have some rights”.
I am at a breaking point where I would rather be neck deep in shit in the west, than live leisurely here because it sucks. Also the job opportunities suck, being in agriculture, as an agronomist my salary would be near the minimum wage, while my software/engineering/any degree peers are way above that. It’s not about the money it’s about the recognition, although even if I decided to become a big time farmer, the main issues that I would face are pollution and corruption.
Sorry if this feels too raw and boring at times, I am a stream of consciousness on this platform and godspeed to you.
Thanks so so much for this insight and sharing, yes it’s raw but not boring in the slightest and I think it’s exactly the kind of thing we need to hear on the forum here.
What do you think immigration policies should be from your country?
Ouch that’s rough. I honestly think every Westerner working in global poverty/health should have to spend a month living in a low-trust society. The corruption and nepotism/tribalism I saw every day were astonishing to my sheltered eyes. It makes me wonder how any overseas org can accurately assess their impact, given the challenges in tracking money and goods, and confirming if they actually make it to their intended recipients.