I upvoted this at first, then changed my mind and downvoted because I find this below argument pretty chilling. Maybe some clarification is needed?
āI donāt think itās obvious that human population growth or economic growth are robustly good. Historically, these ripple effects have had even larger effects on farmed and wild animal populations:ā
On a surface level arguing that economic growth is bad seems problematic. If we assume that economic growth is the best way out of large scale poverty and human suffering (as it seems to be), on a basic level does this mean that you would favour keeping billions of humans in this state in order to minimise animal suffering? Real question @Ariel Simnegar šø.
Looking a little deeper, arguing that growth is bad for animal welfare reasons also seems unfair. High income countries have already benefited hugely from economic growth, and through that process we caused that climate change and the mass suffering of animals you speak of. For us, the mega rich with our disposable cash to, to turn around after messing these things up and say we should now deny other humans the opportunity to grow and develop while we focus for the moment on reducing animal suffering that we ourselves caused seems grossly unfair even if it makes some utilitarian senseāit sends shivers down my spine.
āTrying to account for all of these AW effects makes me feel rather clueless about the long-term ripple effects of GH interventions. In contrast, AW interventions such as humane slaughter seem more likely to me to be robustly good.ā
I like the argument that EA should spend the next 100 million on improving animal welfare, because that might be the best marginal use of money right now as both the world in general and EA neglect it so much, but I really donāt like any argument that is anti-growth and wellbeing of poor countries and poor people because based on priors that growth might well mean more factory farming. I think its gross.
Hey Nick, thanks for the thoughtful comment! Iām going to answer your question, but Iāll start with a bunch of caveats :)
On first-order effects on human wellbeing, I think economic growth is obviously incredibly good.
Even when including knock-on effects on farmed animals, wild animals, and the far future, Iād still bet on economic growth being good, with far higher uncertainty. I am very pro economic growth, but like you, I just think the marginal $100m from the debate question would be better spent on animal welfare.
$100m represents 0.02% of the USās annual philanthropic budget. If we were debating allocating trillions of dollars, I would categorically not go all-in on animal welfare, and would consider it a given that we should use much of that to alleviate global poverty and encourage economic growth.
It seems to me that there are two places where you find the argument alienating. Iāll address them one by one, and then Iāll answer your question.
Fairness
I agree that itās unfair that people from less fortunate countries have been left behind. But I feel like the argument that āitās not fair to those in poverty if we donate to alleviating factory farming, which those in developed countries primarily causeā, is similar to saying āitās not fair to those in poverty if we donate to alleviating climate change, which those in developed countries primarily causeā. We donāt have to go all-in on one cause and not support any other! These are all important problems which deserve some of our resources.
Making Tradeoffs
There was a time when I too thought it would be absurd to allocate money to animals when we could be helping the economically worst-off humans. But for a thought experiment, imagine that for every dollar of world GDP, thereās a person being tortured right now. I think that would in and of itself be sufficient to make economic growth a bad thingāsurely adding a dollar to world GDP canāt be worth causing an additional person to be tortured.
So there is some amount of suffering which, if we knew economic growth caused it, would be enough for economic growth to be a bad thing. If we agree on that, then the debate reduces to whether these animal effects could plausibly be enough for that. At first, my gut instinct was a āhell noā. But then I watched Dominion, a documentary I recommend to you, Nick, if youād like to learn more about the horrors of factory farming.
When I think about the fact that there are trillions of animals, perhaps thousands for each one of us humans, who are suffering horribly in factory farms right now because of us, I feel an enormous moral weight. And our economic growth has indeed contributed to that suffering. Itās contributed to many incredibly good things too, such that Iām not sure about its overall sign. But I now think the burden of this suffering is sufficiently weighty to potentially play a pivotal role in the net effect of economic growth.
So to answer your question, we donāt yet know enough, and it depends on the specifics. But I am willing to say that thereās some amount of animal suffering for which I would be willing to stall economic growth, if we knew all of the relevant details. And I donāt think itās obvious that current levels of animal suffering today are below that threshold.
I get the idea here, but I still think this is a dangerous and disturbing line of argument. I think there are so many ways that we can reduce animal suffering while still encouraging economic growth which lifts people out of poverty.
I just donāt buy that āeconomic growthā in particular causes animal sufferingāso I donāt agree on that. Its not written in the stars that factory farming has to accompany growth. There are worlds where things could be different. Enlightened High income countries could make aid dependent on no factory farming. Local movements could rise up, passonate about the issue and stopping the factory farming transition. Sure these things are unlikely but far from implausible.
I also think if people really, to maintain integrity here they could consider putting a lot of their money (and perhaps their entire life direction) where their mouth through donating a lot of money towards preventing the transition to factory farming in developing countries, or even moving there and fighting for it themselves.
Iām of the (probably unpopular) school of thought that if any human is willing to basically hurt other worse off humans in order to gain any particular goal (in this case reducing animal suffering), they should be willing to sacrifice a lot themselves in order to achieve that.
I understand the concern about wondering whether growth is actually good since it allows a large expansion of factory farming. It can seem gross indeed, and unfair.
But given the terrible amount of suffering that factory farming allowsāand the simple fact that animals are much more numerous than humansāI donāt think we can rule out the fact that the positive effects of growth are negated by the suffering caused on other beings.
It is an uncomfortable question. I really donāt like asking myself this. But if you put it in other terms, any action that leads to putting billions of being in cages so small they barely can turn around is a strong way to offset any other positive aspects.
Iām not sure in what terms this topic should be debated. Obviously it would be better if growth could happen without causing this suffering. But running the calculations, the negative aspects of growth are just very strong (although impacts on wild animal suffering make it unclear).
I upvoted this at first, then changed my mind and downvoted because I find this below argument pretty chilling. Maybe some clarification is needed?
āI donāt think itās obvious that human population growth or economic growth are robustly good. Historically, these ripple effects have had even larger effects on farmed and wild animal populations:ā
On a surface level arguing that economic growth is bad seems problematic. If we assume that economic growth is the best way out of large scale poverty and human suffering (as it seems to be), on a basic level does this mean that you would favour keeping billions of humans in this state in order to minimise animal suffering? Real question @Ariel Simnegar šø.
Looking a little deeper, arguing that growth is bad for animal welfare reasons also seems unfair. High income countries have already benefited hugely from economic growth, and through that process we caused that climate change and the mass suffering of animals you speak of. For us, the mega rich with our disposable cash to, to turn around after messing these things up and say we should now deny other humans the opportunity to grow and develop while we focus for the moment on reducing animal suffering that we ourselves caused seems grossly unfair even if it makes some utilitarian senseāit sends shivers down my spine.
āTrying to account for all of these AW effects makes me feel rather clueless about the long-term ripple effects of GH interventions. In contrast, AW interventions such as humane slaughter seem more likely to me to be robustly good.ā
I like the argument that EA should spend the next 100 million on improving animal welfare, because that might be the best marginal use of money right now as both the world in general and EA neglect it so much, but I really donāt like any argument that is anti-growth and wellbeing of poor countries and poor people because based on priors that growth might well mean more factory farming. I think its gross.
Hey Nick, thanks for the thoughtful comment! Iām going to answer your question, but Iāll start with a bunch of caveats :)
On first-order effects on human wellbeing, I think economic growth is obviously incredibly good.
Even when including knock-on effects on farmed animals, wild animals, and the far future, Iād still bet on economic growth being good, with far higher uncertainty. I am very pro economic growth, but like you, I just think the marginal $100m from the debate question would be better spent on animal welfare.
$100m represents 0.02% of the USās annual philanthropic budget. If we were debating allocating trillions of dollars, I would categorically not go all-in on animal welfare, and would consider it a given that we should use much of that to alleviate global poverty and encourage economic growth.
It seems to me that there are two places where you find the argument alienating. Iāll address them one by one, and then Iāll answer your question.
Fairness
I agree that itās unfair that people from less fortunate countries have been left behind. But I feel like the argument that āitās not fair to those in poverty if we donate to alleviating factory farming, which those in developed countries primarily causeā, is similar to saying āitās not fair to those in poverty if we donate to alleviating climate change, which those in developed countries primarily causeā. We donāt have to go all-in on one cause and not support any other! These are all important problems which deserve some of our resources.
Making Tradeoffs
There was a time when I too thought it would be absurd to allocate money to animals when we could be helping the economically worst-off humans. But for a thought experiment, imagine that for every dollar of world GDP, thereās a person being tortured right now. I think that would in and of itself be sufficient to make economic growth a bad thingāsurely adding a dollar to world GDP canāt be worth causing an additional person to be tortured.
So there is some amount of suffering which, if we knew economic growth caused it, would be enough for economic growth to be a bad thing. If we agree on that, then the debate reduces to whether these animal effects could plausibly be enough for that. At first, my gut instinct was a āhell noā. But then I watched Dominion, a documentary I recommend to you, Nick, if youād like to learn more about the horrors of factory farming.
When I think about the fact that there are trillions of animals, perhaps thousands for each one of us humans, who are suffering horribly in factory farms right now because of us, I feel an enormous moral weight. And our economic growth has indeed contributed to that suffering. Itās contributed to many incredibly good things too, such that Iām not sure about its overall sign. But I now think the burden of this suffering is sufficiently weighty to potentially play a pivotal role in the net effect of economic growth.
So to answer your question, we donāt yet know enough, and it depends on the specifics. But I am willing to say that thereās some amount of animal suffering for which I would be willing to stall economic growth, if we knew all of the relevant details. And I donāt think itās obvious that current levels of animal suffering today are below that threshold.
I get the idea here, but I still think this is a dangerous and disturbing line of argument. I think there are so many ways that we can reduce animal suffering while still encouraging economic growth which lifts people out of poverty.
I just donāt buy that āeconomic growthā in particular causes animal sufferingāso I donāt agree on that. Its not written in the stars that factory farming has to accompany growth. There are worlds where things could be different. Enlightened High income countries could make aid dependent on no factory farming. Local movements could rise up, passonate about the issue and stopping the factory farming transition. Sure these things are unlikely but far from implausible.
I also think if people really, to maintain integrity here they could consider putting a lot of their money (and perhaps their entire life direction) where their mouth through donating a lot of money towards preventing the transition to factory farming in developing countries, or even moving there and fighting for it themselves.
Iām of the (probably unpopular) school of thought that if any human is willing to basically hurt other worse off humans in order to gain any particular goal (in this case reducing animal suffering), they should be willing to sacrifice a lot themselves in order to achieve that.
I understand the concern about wondering whether growth is actually good since it allows a large expansion of factory farming. It can seem gross indeed, and unfair.
But given the terrible amount of suffering that factory farming allowsāand the simple fact that animals are much more numerous than humansāI donāt think we can rule out the fact that the positive effects of growth are negated by the suffering caused on other beings.
It is an uncomfortable question. I really donāt like asking myself this. But if you put it in other terms, any action that leads to putting billions of being in cages so small they barely can turn around is a strong way to offset any other positive aspects.
Iām not sure in what terms this topic should be debated. Obviously it would be better if growth could happen without causing this suffering. But running the calculations, the negative aspects of growth are just very strong (although impacts on wild animal suffering make it unclear).