This is a great concept! Traditional meat substitutes like tofu are generally healthier than their highly processed counterparts like Beyond Meat (canāt find a source for this atm), and I like your approach of popularizing existing meat substitutes rather than trying to invent new onesāI think we need both. I second @jasonkās suggestion to get in touch with GFI.
Iām part Taiwanese, and Iāve actually had some of the tofus you mention in your Medium postāI could never bring myself to try the stinky one, but I love pressed tofu (I didnāt know thatās what it was called).
One risk I see with your project is that a Westerner ādiscoveringā (a.k.a. āColumbusingā) and promoting obscure Chinese food varieties may be perceived as cultural appropriation, especially by the kinds of people youāll want to target (health- or environmentally-conscious progressives). It could also be seen as a mostly white, middle-class fad diet. This article has a lot of good examples of how vegan influencers have tried to promote plant-based foods in an inclusive way (e.g. marketing plant-based food to people of color, using their platforms to promote non-white influencersā accounts, and giving due credit to the cultures that created the foods theyāre promoting), and I suggest emulating these approaches in your project. Iād start by not describing obscure Chinese dishes as ārareā because it sounds weird; āobscureā is better in my opinion. I also suggest including Asian people in your project staff, but not in a tokenizing way. Finally, I strongly suggest doing careful market research as a first step to any business venture.
I think your appreciation for Chinese cuisine shines through in this post and the linked Medium post, and I encourage you to pursue this project!
One personās subjective opinion here, but I think ārareā sounds much nicer than āobscureā (and less weird!). Being offered a ārareā food makes me think ācool, special, unusual, this might be the only chance I get to eat this for years.ā Being offered an āobscureā food makes me think āif this is supposed to taste good, why is it so obscure?ā
I agree re: ārareā v āobscureā. āObscureā to me means weird (in a negative way) in addition to uncommon. āRareā just means uncommon. Diamonds (non-synthesized) are valued highly because theyāre seen as rare, for example. People donāt use the word āobscureā to describe diamonds.
That said, neither word may turn out to be good to use in advertising.
Iām part Chinese and I agree that the perception of appropriation is a significant riskāārare Chinese tofusā is off-putting enough to me that I would be hesitant to try a product marketed as such. This is despite being otherwise excited about the ideaāI love tofu and am on a long campaign to find a tofu dish that my white American partner will enjoy. I think that, beyond chefs, youāll need a base of everyday consumers who help the project take off, and IMO the most likely people to form that base are younger Asian-Americans. (For instance, I think the success of BTS and Korean skincare in the US was strongly predicated on an initial Asian-American base.)
For me personally, I think itās not ārareā that bothers me, but ārareā and āChineseā together. It reminds me of the stereotype that Chinese people are perpetual foreigners who canāt relate to Americans. Iāve heard a general rule to avoid implicitly playing into these stereotypes is to ask yourself whether the ethnic descriptor is necessary to get the point across. In this case, I donāt think it is, because tofu is already Chinese.
IMO, an easy fix here is to call each tofu by its place of origin or its Chinese name, as Pranay suggested. Itāll sound foreign enough to Westerners that it retains an āexoticā appeal (like gua sha, feng shui, or kung fu), and itāll also be accurate and expressly honoring the culture of origin.
I would second having Chinese people on your staff, as well as looking into ways your project can benefit the rural villages whose people developed the tofu.
Iād also potentially suggest looking into, if you havenāt already:
the popularization of seitan, which is also an Asian food now used as a meat substituteāI donāt know anything else about it, but I assume that might be relevant!
the popularization of orange chicken, chow mein, and pad thai, all of which IIRC were coordinated by decentralized networks of immigrant-owned restaurants with the explicit goal of creating a food that bridged Asian and Western tastes
Thanks for sharing your concerns here and taking time to write this all out. I agree that framing these ingredients in a sensitive way is really important.
I would second having Chinese people on your staff, as well as looking into ways your project can benefit the rural villages whose people developed the tofu.
Iām definitely looking for other allies and partners!! If you know anyone, Iād love to connect :)
Iāve heard a general rule to avoid implicitly playing into these stereotypes is to ask yourself whether the ethnic descriptor is necessary to get the point across. In this case, I donāt think it is, because tofu is already Chinese.
Iād actually disagree pretty strongly on this pointāI think āChineseā is a pretty important descriptor.
For folks in China, calling something āChineseā is generally a symbol of pride, the same way American products might brag that theyāre āmade in America.ā There are definitely cases where this isnāt true (i.e. Trumpās āChina virusā), but bad examples donāt seem like a reason to not use the label in positive ways.
Besides pride and respect, there seems to be important information value. In non-Asian American communities, tofu is treated as this homogenous pan-Asian thing. The reason I think this is problematic is a) itās culturally insensitive, b) itās factually inaccurate, and c) it compresses Asian food into a monotony thatās harder for folks outside the communities to understand and appreciate.
Tofu is not just a Chinese thing, but the varieties weāre using are mostly Chinese. In this sense, labelling them as Chinese helps fight the cultural flattening. It also allows folks to dig deeper into how these ingredients are different. (There are some āpan-Asianā tofus, like firm/āsoft/āsilken, but our team isnāt focused on those.)
The alternative, not calling them Chinese, seems worse to me. Almost like saying, donāt call Italian olive oil āItalian.ā It would probably be seen as disrespectful to producers in China, like not giving them credit, and it would restrict consumer understanding.
Iām less certain about the ārareā label. It seems that the word can have both positive and negative connotations, and sometimes provide important information value.
The main reason I call these tofus rare is to distinguish them from ordinary tofus. Differentiating them seems important because a) most US non-Asian Americans donāt love ordinary tofu; b) this dislike stems from inherent characteristics of ordinary tofu, rather than branding, meaning that negative perceptions will likely continue into the near-term future (happy to share moreāmy teamās done a bit of research into this question); c) if ārareā tofus canāt distinguish themselves from ordinary tofus, they will run into the same consumer opposition; d) ārareā tofus are fundamentally different from ordinary ones and could have wide appeal amongst anti-tofu foodies.
I think itās also accurate to call them ārareā, as they arenāt common in most of the world. Many of these tofus arenāt even common within China.
Consumers find rare/āscarce things more exciting and appealing. This is true for everything from rare collectibles, exclusive events, limited edition specials, etc. I donāt think the connotations are inherently positive or negativeāsometimes they can be othering, other times they can increase interest, but it really depends on context.
Business often exploit, commoditize, and market āexoticā or āforeignā culture. I think this is pretty sad for many reasons, including that it marginalizes folks in our communities who identify with that culture. I think marketing rare tofus to western cooks, in the way weāre hoping to do, however, has almost the opposite effectāit engages folks with ingredients they otherwise would not know about, creating bonds between the U.S. and China at a time of historical tension, over common concernsāfighting climate change and enjoying delicious food. Iām also not trying to āownā any cultural aspectāthe more folks working on this project, the happier I will be.
Itās possible thereās a better synonymācurious if anyone has thoughts.
Ha, I never check my forum notificationsāa belated thank you for responding and engaging with this, itās clear that youāve already really thought through a lot of the potential harms folks are bringing up which is much appreciated. I definitely see the reasons why each word individually makes sense, but I do also wonder if thereās a better synonym for rare.
The only thing Iād push back on is:
For folks in China, calling something āChineseā is generally a symbol of pride, the same way American products might brag that theyāre āmade in America.ā There are definitely cases where this isnāt true (i.e. Trumpās āChina virusā), but bad examples donāt seem like a reason to not use the label in positive ways.
I think this is 100% true, and also the reason why Chinese-Americans find it off-putting. A lot of what second-gen folks like myself would call ācultural appropriationā, immigrants with stronger ties to their home country would say makes them proud to see their culture represented in American [media/āculture/āetc].
So I suppose I should clarify that Iām speaking from the POV of Asian-Americans, who might find it more distasteful (pun intended). Whereas native Chinese people and non-Asian Americans will probably resonate w/ā the framing for all the reasons you share.
No need to respond to this one month later, just wanted to ~ close the loop ~
These are good points. Itās crazy how the faces of western veganism have been predominantly white, despite the fact that most veg culture originated outside of Europe. Very much with you on ācelebratingā rather than ādiscovering,ā and being clear about cultural roots.
I donāt agree with this comment chain. Setting aside externalities to EA, we shouldnāt add dependencies that restrict decisions of effective founders.
I donāt find the content in the top convincing enough to pin future leaders to what I see as one perspective or worldview.
This seems especially valuable if we are supporting āhits basedā projects like this one.
Imagine if somehow this got headlines like:
āBrilliant American steals secret recipes that the Chinese have hidden!ā
āNew popular tofu is stirring up controversy. Hear what the founder has to say!ā
These might actually be brilliant ways to market this to Americans. Or maybe this might be really terrible and not the style of the leader at all.
I donāt know if it was clear from my original comment, but I was focusing on the perception of cultural appropriation as a risk to the reputation of the project, not cultural appropriation as an immoral act per se.
This is a great concept! Traditional meat substitutes like tofu are generally healthier than their highly processed counterparts like Beyond Meat (canāt find a source for this atm), and I like your approach of popularizing existing meat substitutes rather than trying to invent new onesāI think we need both. I second @jasonkās suggestion to get in touch with GFI.
Iām part Taiwanese, and Iāve actually had some of the tofus you mention in your Medium postāI could never bring myself to try the stinky one, but I love pressed tofu (I didnāt know thatās what it was called).
One risk I see with your project is that a Westerner ādiscoveringā (a.k.a. āColumbusingā) and promoting obscure Chinese food varieties may be perceived as cultural appropriation, especially by the kinds of people youāll want to target (health- or environmentally-conscious progressives). It could also be seen as a mostly white, middle-class fad diet. This article has a lot of good examples of how vegan influencers have tried to promote plant-based foods in an inclusive way (e.g. marketing plant-based food to people of color, using their platforms to promote non-white influencersā accounts, and giving due credit to the cultures that created the foods theyāre promoting), and I suggest emulating these approaches in your project. Iād start by not describing obscure Chinese dishes as ārareā because it sounds weird; āobscureā is better in my opinion. I also suggest including Asian people in your project staff, but not in a tokenizing way. Finally, I strongly suggest doing careful market research as a first step to any business venture.
I think your appreciation for Chinese cuisine shines through in this post and the linked Medium post, and I encourage you to pursue this project!
One personās subjective opinion here, but I think ārareā sounds much nicer than āobscureā (and less weird!). Being offered a ārareā food makes me think ācool, special, unusual, this might be the only chance I get to eat this for years.ā Being offered an āobscureā food makes me think āif this is supposed to taste good, why is it so obscure?ā
I agree re: ārareā v āobscureā. āObscureā to me means weird (in a negative way) in addition to uncommon. āRareā just means uncommon. Diamonds (non-synthesized) are valued highly because theyāre seen as rare, for example. People donāt use the word āobscureā to describe diamonds.
That said, neither word may turn out to be good to use in advertising.
+1
Iām part Chinese and I agree that the perception of appropriation is a significant riskāārare Chinese tofusā is off-putting enough to me that I would be hesitant to try a product marketed as such. This is despite being otherwise excited about the ideaāI love tofu and am on a long campaign to find a tofu dish that my white American partner will enjoy. I think that, beyond chefs, youāll need a base of everyday consumers who help the project take off, and IMO the most likely people to form that base are younger Asian-Americans. (For instance, I think the success of BTS and Korean skincare in the US was strongly predicated on an initial Asian-American base.)
For me personally, I think itās not ārareā that bothers me, but ārareā and āChineseā together. It reminds me of the stereotype that Chinese people are perpetual foreigners who canāt relate to Americans. Iāve heard a general rule to avoid implicitly playing into these stereotypes is to ask yourself whether the ethnic descriptor is necessary to get the point across. In this case, I donāt think it is, because tofu is already Chinese.
IMO, an easy fix here is to call each tofu by its place of origin or its Chinese name, as Pranay suggested. Itāll sound foreign enough to Westerners that it retains an āexoticā appeal (like gua sha, feng shui, or kung fu), and itāll also be accurate and expressly honoring the culture of origin.
I would second having Chinese people on your staff, as well as looking into ways your project can benefit the rural villages whose people developed the tofu.
Iād also potentially suggest looking into, if you havenāt already:
the popularization of seitan, which is also an Asian food now used as a meat substituteāI donāt know anything else about it, but I assume that might be relevant!
the popularization of orange chicken, chow mein, and pad thai, all of which IIRC were coordinated by decentralized networks of immigrant-owned restaurants with the explicit goal of creating a food that bridged Asian and Western tastes
Thanks for sharing your concerns here and taking time to write this all out. I agree that framing these ingredients in a sensitive way is really important.
Iām definitely looking for other allies and partners!! If you know anyone, Iād love to connect :)
Iād actually disagree pretty strongly on this pointāI think āChineseā is a pretty important descriptor.
For folks in China, calling something āChineseā is generally a symbol of pride, the same way American products might brag that theyāre āmade in America.ā There are definitely cases where this isnāt true (i.e. Trumpās āChina virusā), but bad examples donāt seem like a reason to not use the label in positive ways.
Besides pride and respect, there seems to be important information value. In non-Asian American communities, tofu is treated as this homogenous pan-Asian thing. The reason I think this is problematic is a) itās culturally insensitive, b) itās factually inaccurate, and c) it compresses Asian food into a monotony thatās harder for folks outside the communities to understand and appreciate.
Tofu is not just a Chinese thing, but the varieties weāre using are mostly Chinese. In this sense, labelling them as Chinese helps fight the cultural flattening. It also allows folks to dig deeper into how these ingredients are different. (There are some āpan-Asianā tofus, like firm/āsoft/āsilken, but our team isnāt focused on those.)
The alternative, not calling them Chinese, seems worse to me. Almost like saying, donāt call Italian olive oil āItalian.ā It would probably be seen as disrespectful to producers in China, like not giving them credit, and it would restrict consumer understanding.
Iām less certain about the ārareā label. It seems that the word can have both positive and negative connotations, and sometimes provide important information value.
The main reason I call these tofus rare is to distinguish them from ordinary tofus. Differentiating them seems important because a) most US non-Asian Americans donāt love ordinary tofu; b) this dislike stems from inherent characteristics of ordinary tofu, rather than branding, meaning that negative perceptions will likely continue into the near-term future (happy to share moreāmy teamās done a bit of research into this question); c) if ārareā tofus canāt distinguish themselves from ordinary tofus, they will run into the same consumer opposition; d) ārareā tofus are fundamentally different from ordinary ones and could have wide appeal amongst anti-tofu foodies.
I think itās also accurate to call them ārareā, as they arenāt common in most of the world. Many of these tofus arenāt even common within China.
Consumers find rare/āscarce things more exciting and appealing. This is true for everything from rare collectibles, exclusive events, limited edition specials, etc. I donāt think the connotations are inherently positive or negativeāsometimes they can be othering, other times they can increase interest, but it really depends on context.
Business often exploit, commoditize, and market āexoticā or āforeignā culture. I think this is pretty sad for many reasons, including that it marginalizes folks in our communities who identify with that culture. I think marketing rare tofus to western cooks, in the way weāre hoping to do, however, has almost the opposite effectāit engages folks with ingredients they otherwise would not know about, creating bonds between the U.S. and China at a time of historical tension, over common concernsāfighting climate change and enjoying delicious food. Iām also not trying to āownā any cultural aspectāthe more folks working on this project, the happier I will be.
Itās possible thereās a better synonymācurious if anyone has thoughts.
Ha, I never check my forum notificationsāa belated thank you for responding and engaging with this, itās clear that youāve already really thought through a lot of the potential harms folks are bringing up which is much appreciated. I definitely see the reasons why each word individually makes sense, but I do also wonder if thereās a better synonym for rare.
The only thing Iād push back on is:
I think this is 100% true, and also the reason why Chinese-Americans find it off-putting. A lot of what second-gen folks like myself would call ācultural appropriationā, immigrants with stronger ties to their home country would say makes them proud to see their culture represented in American [media/āculture/āetc].
So I suppose I should clarify that Iām speaking from the POV of Asian-Americans, who might find it more distasteful (pun intended). Whereas native Chinese people and non-Asian Americans will probably resonate w/ā the framing for all the reasons you share.
No need to respond to this one month later, just wanted to ~ close the loop ~
These are good points. Itās crazy how the faces of western veganism have been predominantly white, despite the fact that most veg culture originated outside of Europe. Very much with you on ācelebratingā rather than ādiscovering,ā and being clear about cultural roots.
Appreciate your feedback!
I donāt agree with this comment chain. Setting aside externalities to EA, we shouldnāt add dependencies that restrict decisions of effective founders.
I donāt find the content in the top convincing enough to pin future leaders to what I see as one perspective or worldview.
This seems especially valuable if we are supporting āhits basedā projects like this one.
Imagine if somehow this got headlines like:
āBrilliant American steals secret recipes that the Chinese have hidden!ā
āNew popular tofu is stirring up controversy. Hear what the founder has to say!ā
These might actually be brilliant ways to market this to Americans. Or maybe this might be really terrible and not the style of the leader at all.
But we should let the leader decide.
I donāt know if it was clear from my original comment, but I was focusing on the perception of cultural appropriation as a risk to the reputation of the project, not cultural appropriation as an immoral act per se.