Thanks so much for this super interesting post and discussion. I love that its Vasco raising this discussion as I think he has some personal integrity here “I personally currently donate everything above a target level of savings.”—he’s an example of someone who doesn’t necessarily earn a huge amount, and donates a lot (seen on previous posts/comments).
Here are some cold takes
1) When it comes to giving, I find less well off people giving small amounts humbling and powerful. I ascribe to something like “widows mite” theory. Jesus sees a poor women offer a tiny amount of money, and after people laugh at her seemingly meagre offering, he says “The plain truth is that this widow has given by far the largest offering today. All these others made offerings that they’ll never miss; she gave extravagantly what she couldn’t afford—she gave her all!””
Of course she hasn’t done “more good” from a utilitarian standpoint than the billionaire giving billions, but (the way I see it) she gave the morally larger offering, given her situation. I also think (like Vasco) when less well-off people give, it can really convict those of us who have more to give more as well.
2) As much as I love this post and we have a beautiful bent here towards numbers, personally I don’t think an empirical approach is going to necessarily lead us to clear answers here because there are many ways to think about how we give and so many subjective value issues around our lifestyle and savings. This is how I think about it...
1) How much do I earn? 2) How much do I use to live day to day? 3) How much do I save?
On a really basic level Giving =Earning - (Spending + Saving). Most people don’t have that much control about how much they earn, so how much they give comes down to their lifestyle and savings norms (assuming they are optimising somewhat for giving). So then there are different ways of approaching the equation
I LOVE Vascoes approach of setting a celing for his Spending+Saving total—then giving the rest. For me this is a super noble approach and makes logical sense. Even if we end up failing at meeting this noble goal, we’ll at least notice the almost inevitable “lifestyle creep” and check it as much as we an. I also like his suggestion above of increasing percentage giving with higher incomes, which allows people to drastically increase their daily use and savings while also giving a lot more. Our approach is less numerical—its basically to live simply, not save much and give the rest (not much at all on our income) away. I think its usually good practise to be honest with ourselves about our approach to giving, and make active decisions about lifestyle and savings.
I really like that Giving what We can suggests a lower percentage for people who earn less and I understand why they picked a number as it is concrete and challenging (1%). I also agree with Vasco they could perhaps be more ambitious. I’ve got mixed feelings about a calculator—maybe it is the optimal approach for some, but I feel like some people on 70k a year can give 30k just fine and this should be encouraged, applauded and even normalised. Maybe a diverse range of giving approaches could be discussed? Especially among EAs I think we could aim to do better than 1% at that salary range, and I’ve met many wonderful people that do.
3) These thoughts are coloured by my Ugandan experience. My colleagues give a huge amount to friends, family and church despite not earning very much. Our nurses start on $140 a month and live in 1-2 room apartments with power but no running water. I want to do a proper survey, but I suspect our nurses give betwen 10% and 30% of their income to support their relatives education and basic needs. This isn’t the “most effective” use of money, but there’s decent evidence sponsoring individuals education and basic needs works and I believe this support is far more cost effective than most NGOs here. We even support some kids with school fees here because it is both a bit effective and an important social norm/glue—its just “what you do” here if you have more than enough.
On this backdrop I find the “life is hard for people earning 40k in New York” thing a little hard to stomach, although I get its a different thing (point 4).
4)“Yes, there are some paragons of virtue who would be able to make that work.”—Although I understand the sentiment, but I don’t think people need to necessarily be a “paragon of vitrue” to live simply in shared housing (or with family), wear second hand clothes and not eat out that much—basically eschewing a few social norms in order to free up the money donate 10% or more. Students often have great lives living pretty simply, but then rapidly increase spending after getting jobs because they can, while not necessarily getting a whole lot happier. I think people might be “constantly stressed” and feel pressed for cash in America at low and middle incomes because that is the cultural norm around lifestyle, not because life is genuinely impossible or even that hard to manage at lower incomes. Almost 90% of teens in America have IPhones that cost almost $1000 dollars, when a $250 phone would do almost exactly the same thing, with slightly worse photos. This obviously includes the majority of kids who’s parents have low incomes or no income. What kind of norm does that set?
Looking back at the comment some of these observations might seam a bit “soapboxy” or even harsh, am not judging anyone here at all—the struggles at low income to make ends meet are real all around the world as is the struggle to meet cultural expectations.
Thanks for the thoughtful comments and kind words, Nick!
[Vasco] donates a lot (seen on previous posts/comments)
I think I may have given the impression I donate a lot because I have a ceiling for my savings, and low spending. However, since the ceiling is high relative to my cumulative net income, I have not donated that much, 16.5 % of my net salary earnings.
I LOVE Vascoes approach of setting a celing for his Spending+Saving total—then giving the rest.
Thanks! Just to clarify, I only have a ceiling for my savings (6 times the global real GDP per capita, which is 72.9 k€ in Portugal), although my spending has been quite low thanks to lots of family support (crucially, free housing), and generally having a simple lifestyle (e.g. I have not left Portugal in the last 4.5 years).
Thanks so much for this super interesting post and discussion. I love that its Vasco raising this discussion as I think he has some personal integrity here “I personally currently donate everything above a target level of savings.”—he’s an example of someone who doesn’t necessarily earn a huge amount, and donates a lot (seen on previous posts/comments).
Here are some cold takes
1) When it comes to giving, I find less well off people giving small amounts humbling and powerful. I ascribe to something like “widows mite” theory. Jesus sees a poor women offer a tiny amount of money, and after people laugh at her seemingly meagre offering, he says “The plain truth is that this widow has given by far the largest offering today. All these others made offerings that they’ll never miss; she gave extravagantly what she couldn’t afford—she gave her all!””
Of course she hasn’t done “more good” from a utilitarian standpoint than the billionaire giving billions, but (the way I see it) she gave the morally larger offering, given her situation. I also think (like Vasco) when less well-off people give, it can really convict those of us who have more to give more as well.
2) As much as I love this post and we have a beautiful bent here towards numbers, personally I don’t think an empirical approach is going to necessarily lead us to clear answers here because there are many ways to think about how we give and so many subjective value issues around our lifestyle and savings. This is how I think about it...
1) How much do I earn?
2) How much do I use to live day to day?
3) How much do I save?
On a really basic level Giving = Earning - (Spending + Saving). Most people don’t have that much control about how much they earn, so how much they give comes down to their lifestyle and savings norms (assuming they are optimising somewhat for giving). So then there are different ways of approaching the equation
I LOVE Vascoes approach of setting a celing for his Spending+Saving total—then giving the rest. For me this is a super noble approach and makes logical sense. Even if we end up failing at meeting this noble goal, we’ll at least notice the almost inevitable “lifestyle creep” and check it as much as we an. I also like his suggestion above of increasing percentage giving with higher incomes, which allows people to drastically increase their daily use and savings while also giving a lot more. Our approach is less numerical—its basically to live simply, not save much and give the rest (not much at all on our income) away. I think its usually good practise to be honest with ourselves about our approach to giving, and make active decisions about lifestyle and savings.
I really like that Giving what We can suggests a lower percentage for people who earn less and I understand why they picked a number as it is concrete and challenging (1%). I also agree with Vasco they could perhaps be more ambitious. I’ve got mixed feelings about a calculator—maybe it is the optimal approach for some, but I feel like some people on 70k a year can give 30k just fine and this should be encouraged, applauded and even normalised. Maybe a diverse range of giving approaches could be discussed? Especially among EAs I think we could aim to do better than 1% at that salary range, and I’ve met many wonderful people that do.
3) These thoughts are coloured by my Ugandan experience. My colleagues give a huge amount to friends, family and church despite not earning very much. Our nurses start on $140 a month and live in 1-2 room apartments with power but no running water. I want to do a proper survey, but I suspect our nurses give betwen 10% and 30% of their income to support their relatives education and basic needs. This isn’t the “most effective” use of money, but there’s decent evidence sponsoring individuals education and basic needs works and I believe this support is far more cost effective than most NGOs here. We even support some kids with school fees here because it is both a bit effective and an important social norm/glue—its just “what you do” here if you have more than enough.
On this backdrop I find the “life is hard for people earning 40k in New York” thing a little hard to stomach, although I get its a different thing (point 4).
4) “Yes, there are some paragons of virtue who would be able to make that work.”—Although I understand the sentiment, but I don’t think people need to necessarily be a “paragon of vitrue” to live simply in shared housing (or with family), wear second hand clothes and not eat out that much—basically eschewing a few social norms in order to free up the money donate 10% or more. Students often have great lives living pretty simply, but then rapidly increase spending after getting jobs because they can, while not necessarily getting a whole lot happier. I think people might be “constantly stressed” and feel pressed for cash in America at low and middle incomes because that is the cultural norm around lifestyle, not because life is genuinely impossible or even that hard to manage at lower incomes. Almost 90% of teens in America have IPhones that cost almost $1000 dollars, when a $250 phone would do almost exactly the same thing, with slightly worse photos. This obviously includes the majority of kids who’s parents have low incomes or no income. What kind of norm does that set?
Looking back at the comment some of these observations might seam a bit “soapboxy” or even harsh, am not judging anyone here at all—the struggles at low income to make ends meet are real all around the world as is the struggle to meet cultural expectations.
Thanks for the thoughtful comments and kind words, Nick!
I think I may have given the impression I donate a lot because I have a ceiling for my savings, and low spending. However, since the ceiling is high relative to my cumulative net income, I have not donated that much, 16.5 % of my net salary earnings.
Thanks! Just to clarify, I only have a ceiling for my savings (6 times the global real GDP per capita, which is 72.9 k€ in Portugal), although my spending has been quite low thanks to lots of family support (crucially, free housing), and generally having a simple lifestyle (e.g. I have not left Portugal in the last 4.5 years).