As one example of an EA sub-community alienating another EA sub-community, I’m seeing a lot of recent posts about sexual misconduct within EA that tend to stereotype & demonize people who practice consensual non-monogamy (e.g. polyamory, open relationships) as if they’re all sexual predators without any norms, boundaries, or ethics. As a sex researcher who studies anti-polyamory stigma, this seems fairly bad. Yet it’s very hard to stand up for polyamory in these contexts, where any disagreement or pushback is perceived as invalidating someone’s specific complaints about sexual misconduct. So, people into consensual non-monogamy may feel obligated to self-censor.
More generally, I’m seeing a lot of general misandry (anti-male bias) in some of these posts about sexual misconduct, as if all men are somehow complicit in the sexual misconduct of a few—or, in extreme cases, as if all courtship and ‘mating effort’ by males is somehow ethically invalid. This risks alienating the silent majority of men in EA who don’t like being demonized, but who are too frightened to protest against the casual misandry that has become all too common in online culture.
I think it’s important to remember that EA sub-communities include both female sub-communities and male sub-communities, and both monogamist and non-monogamist sub-communities, and we should try very hard to be equally welcoming, affirming, and validating to all of them.
Curious what downvoters are thinking. I disagree-voted, but upvoted to correct for thinking it was too low.
I guess I try to reserve downvotes for either lazy or overton-violating comments, and I think the mistakes Geoffrey is making in this post are within a reasonable error tolerance (i.e., neither of those).
I didn’t vote in any way, but I do think Geoffrey’s point is somewhat afield of what I perceive as the main point of Joey’s post—which, as I read it, is largely about communication with those who are outside or new to the community who may “encounter sub-communities before they have a full understanding of the movement and the wide variety of opinions and viewpoints within it.” Likewise, the discussion of (e.g.,) males as a sub-community is somewhat distant from what I think Joey is trying to convey here.
Given the loose fit between main post and comment, people may be reacting to the past tendency for discussions on the issue of polyamory to significantly take over a comment thread. A downvote may be a method of communicating a desire to keep the discussion more tightly linked to the main point rather than turning Joey’s post into another thread on polyamory, alleged misandry in internal community discussions, or similar issues.
I am struck yet again by a double standard here, where if some groups or subcommunities complain that EA is not inclusive, or is too polarizing, their views are taken very seriously, and discussed respectfully. Whereas if other groups or subcommunities (e.g. men who don’t like misandry, or poly people) complain that EA is not inclusive, their views are dismissed as irrelevant distractions.
Yeah there’s nonzero truth to this. An example is that Hanania’s attempts at contributing to EA dialogue get downvoted to oblivion on here (though this example is flawed: Hanania has a mean-spirited and unpleasant writing style that would generate downvotes regardless of the value of his analysis). I think it’s basically fine to conclude that the median request for epistemic diversity around here is a thinly veiled complaint about the space not being lefty enough.
Which isn’t intrinsically the same thing as the question of which group’s grievances are honored and which groups are told to get over it, but definitely correlated.
I disagree with Geoffrey because I think on the forum (with a couple exceptions) that the “stereotype risk” or “risks from aggressive generalization” insofar as they may in theory negatively impact male readers are well within a reasonable error tolerance, I’ve seen really hardly anyone step over the line into what I’d call misandry, or even come close really. (but that may just be cuz I’m toughened up from my years adjacent to outwardly pro misandry parts of lefty cultures, lmao).
Moreover I expect OP would reasonably find relitigating epistemic diversity a little off topic. Kinda related but very different emphasis.
I may be sensitized to the downsides of what one could call ‘casual misandry’ from my time hosting the Mating Grounds podcast (2014-2016), when we took calls from hundreds of young single men who felt unfairly attacked, demonized, & stereotyped by the current mainstream culture. So when I see discussions of sexual (mis)conduct issues in EA Forum, I may be perceiving more casual misandry and anti-male stereotyping than others might.
Well, I can’t even see my own comment any more, and I have no idea why people are downvoting my plea for EAs to stop demonizing polyamorous people and men. Puzzling.
Joey—good post. Valid points.
As one example of an EA sub-community alienating another EA sub-community, I’m seeing a lot of recent posts about sexual misconduct within EA that tend to stereotype & demonize people who practice consensual non-monogamy (e.g. polyamory, open relationships) as if they’re all sexual predators without any norms, boundaries, or ethics. As a sex researcher who studies anti-polyamory stigma, this seems fairly bad. Yet it’s very hard to stand up for polyamory in these contexts, where any disagreement or pushback is perceived as invalidating someone’s specific complaints about sexual misconduct. So, people into consensual non-monogamy may feel obligated to self-censor.
More generally, I’m seeing a lot of general misandry (anti-male bias) in some of these posts about sexual misconduct, as if all men are somehow complicit in the sexual misconduct of a few—or, in extreme cases, as if all courtship and ‘mating effort’ by males is somehow ethically invalid. This risks alienating the silent majority of men in EA who don’t like being demonized, but who are too frightened to protest against the casual misandry that has become all too common in online culture.
I think it’s important to remember that EA sub-communities include both female sub-communities and male sub-communities, and both monogamist and non-monogamist sub-communities, and we should try very hard to be equally welcoming, affirming, and validating to all of them.
Curious what downvoters are thinking. I disagree-voted, but upvoted to correct for thinking it was too low.
I guess I try to reserve downvotes for either lazy or overton-violating comments, and I think the mistakes Geoffrey is making in this post are within a reasonable error tolerance (i.e., neither of those).
I didn’t vote in any way, but I do think Geoffrey’s point is somewhat afield of what I perceive as the main point of Joey’s post—which, as I read it, is largely about communication with those who are outside or new to the community who may “encounter sub-communities before they have a full understanding of the movement and the wide variety of opinions and viewpoints within it.” Likewise, the discussion of (e.g.,) males as a sub-community is somewhat distant from what I think Joey is trying to convey here.
Given the loose fit between main post and comment, people may be reacting to the past tendency for discussions on the issue of polyamory to significantly take over a comment thread. A downvote may be a method of communicating a desire to keep the discussion more tightly linked to the main point rather than turning Joey’s post into another thread on polyamory, alleged misandry in internal community discussions, or similar issues.
Jason, thanks for your hypothesis.
I am struck yet again by a double standard here, where if some groups or subcommunities complain that EA is not inclusive, or is too polarizing, their views are taken very seriously, and discussed respectfully. Whereas if other groups or subcommunities (e.g. men who don’t like misandry, or poly people) complain that EA is not inclusive, their views are dismissed as irrelevant distractions.
Yeah there’s nonzero truth to this. An example is that Hanania’s attempts at contributing to EA dialogue get downvoted to oblivion on here (though this example is flawed: Hanania has a mean-spirited and unpleasant writing style that would generate downvotes regardless of the value of his analysis). I think it’s basically fine to conclude that the median request for epistemic diversity around here is a thinly veiled complaint about the space not being lefty enough.
Which isn’t intrinsically the same thing as the question of which group’s grievances are honored and which groups are told to get over it, but definitely correlated.
I disagree with Geoffrey because I think on the forum (with a couple exceptions) that the “stereotype risk” or “risks from aggressive generalization” insofar as they may in theory negatively impact male readers are well within a reasonable error tolerance, I’ve seen really hardly anyone step over the line into what I’d call misandry, or even come close really. (but that may just be cuz I’m toughened up from my years adjacent to outwardly pro misandry parts of lefty cultures, lmao).
Moreover I expect OP would reasonably find relitigating epistemic diversity a little off topic. Kinda related but very different emphasis.
quinn—thanks for your reply. Valid points.
I may be sensitized to the downsides of what one could call ‘casual misandry’ from my time hosting the Mating Grounds podcast (2014-2016), when we took calls from hundreds of young single men who felt unfairly attacked, demonized, & stereotyped by the current mainstream culture. So when I see discussions of sexual (mis)conduct issues in EA Forum, I may be perceiving more casual misandry and anti-male stereotyping than others might.
Well, I can’t even see my own comment any more, and I have no idea why people are downvoting my plea for EAs to stop demonizing polyamorous people and men. Puzzling.