Good morning!! Ok, this is where I need to wave my hands around! First of all, I’ve listened and watched the video, and my gut reaction was similar to the grimaces of the lady in it, mostly that I wouldn’t want to have a drink at the pub with the main speaker. Why so in terms of arguments, I’m not yet sure (and they may come out slower today than yesterday when I was just throwing out things at you) sure—I think I would attack claims as callous what he says about everybody being free to exploit everybody else, also I’d attack what he says about the studies in Nature, by saying that Nature can also be guilty of (natural) scientizing things that it shouldn’t be scientizing, for example there’s a lot of social construction going on in the concepts involved in the study for Nature to be able to provide a natural angle to them and I think that’s evident in what he talks about (i can be forced to talk a bit more about this if you want me to explain a bit more).
Now, touching on other things briefly: I’ve looked up on wikipedia (another example of the wisdom of the many) the terms equality of opportunity and equality of outcome, I have to say that my gut says equality of outcome is very important and i’m all for. I think I can maybe turn this argument back into something where I may be more convincing, to the question of whether truth is easy or not to achieve and how (this would make us go through expertise and into the outcome-opportunity question, as in do we want the best to run our company/state or is there no such thing as ‘the best’?). Here’s the link to the researcher I mentioned and maybe a key paper, in it you can find the mathematical theorem (if you can’t find it then it won’t be hard for me to find it for you, I mean to go to the relevant footnote in the paper): https://yale.academia.edu/HeleneLandemore (the person) - and i think that’s the paper i’m referring to, the mathematical theorem must be in one of the footnotes if i remember correctly: https://www.academia.edu/31286808/Why_the_Many_Are_Smarter_than_the_Few_and_Why_It_Matters_Published_version_
As for the Constitution not having as its main business the wealth inequality because of the many deaths and suffering in 20th century regimes, I think you put it very elegantly, but I think we need to think about it. I remember once an anecdote that Lenin said sth like ‘but i want everybody to travel first class’ when it was pointed out to him that there were first and second classes in the trains, something like that.
As for Musk, I find his claims on free speech as very irresponsible, I find his move to ask the US government to pay him for the Ukrainians internet after the Ukrainians disagreed with his views callous (if he doesn’t want to intervene, then don’t intervene from the beginning, rather than flip-flopping—let the politics to the politicians, or then acknowledge his huge power). In general, I am very critical of him and Zuckerberg on pretending that their riches do not give them a political role. They are deeply political and they had better a) recognise this and b) behave responsibly with their wealth. Besides, as for Musk specifically, I don’t know if it’s true, but I’ve heard that a) the US government or other bodies helped him financially many times when he was in deep debt, despite his projections that he’s the best investor there is and b) one of his daughters changed her name so as not to be associated with him (not a good sign).
As for Dirac and Einstein, I would classify them along with great artists or sportsmen and music-people. What do you think about this idea? :)
Best Wishes, Haris
Ps: i may be a bit slower in answering today, as I have some other things to read too—my heart is here though my head, enslaved by the capitalist logic that I have to put food on my table, says that I should focus on the other things too :)
No rush in replying and I appreciate your honesty and time on these concepts.
Equality of outcome is so difficult to achieve—how many race or ethnicities do we need to level down or up? How many age do we need to evaluate? do we prefer men or women? kids vs. Adults? Outcomes can never equalize no matter how hard we try and again, we tried it in communist countries as the idea of aiming utopias have birthed to the deaths of millions (Maoist China, Russia’s Stalin and Pot’s Cambodia). Equality of opportunities is what I prefer—all have the freedom to choose and opportunities are available to everyone.
I have not read Musk charging for his support in Ukraine so I need to read more—but if that is the case and there was no reason for it that is viable. But the free speech and buying twitter can become something that is worth to see in the coming months, I agree on his take on revamping the mechanism of twitter and make it more objective rather than subjective like the twitter board so its yet to see if his claims of freedom of speech will prosper. We will see.
I will read the one you attached here and will share my ideas later.
In some sense Dirac and Einstein are unique individuals like those that have talents similar to music and sports. But the works they did became foundations of other great things—the theoretical physicists have helped us paved the modern world like no other group has…
Again, no rush in commenting and i hope you have a great day today.
Would lotteries and random selection (or a mix between random selection and CVs) be a way to secure equality of outcome? I actually agree with you that we can generate at nauseam differences that we’d have to level up or down (for example why not bald people if we accept people with more obvious disabilities or whatever), I am a big fan of lotteries though—you may find some examples how this can be achieved (and some arguments for) in Landemore’s work.
To be honest, I don’t use Twitter and know even less about how it works. However I do remember that even J.S. Mill in his classic work on free speech makes the point that there’s a time and a place where you can say certain things, let’s say you for example it’d be irresponsible to argue that firefighters are against the state in front of a burning building.
As for Dirac and Einstein, one question, are you aware of the state of modern theoretical physics? If you thought that Quantum Mechanics and Einstein’s cat example was crazy, what do you make of parallel universes, dark matter and simulation? for me, these are far beyond fairy tales as regards their nonfalsifiability and fanciness. It’s just fanciness with a few numbers thrown in :)
I would be okay with lotteries as a solution for simple problem eg. distributing small amounts of wealth—but in solving mind bending issues that humanity face, We need the best of the best and them being agreeing together for the benefit of all.
I’m perfectly aware of the stagnation and the fall of string theory to deliver its promises—thus staining the legacy of those that walked before them in the field of physics. We are in need of new solutions—resource distribution and allocation is a big component of how multiple worlds thrive. I’m in the middle as far as parallel universes and simulation as there is no evidence to the contrary though dark matter is something that can be better studied through experiments and observations—maybe the JWT (James Webb Telescope) can help in making better data captures for future modeling / measurements...
Free speech out of context is not free speech and basically just being either noisy or disturbing. I argue for free speech that is on point and not out of context.
Hope I explained myself well in this one. Let me know of any more clarifications needing to be addressed.
Greetings! Thanks for your well-thought out answer, don’t worry, you’ve expressed yourself perfectly well (apart from one clarification that i’ll ask below!).
First of all, I’d like to push you a bit on the experts and the best outcome. A problem would be the problem of legitimacy, without which you just won’t get people to do what the experts want them to do (for example on climate change). I have argued in the past (in the 15min video that i told you i could send you or in a powerpoint i can send you of another conference) that scientific expertise (the best of the best as you say agreeing among themselves) may not be sufficient to compel citizens to action, and that this may be achieved better if the deliberating body is seen as a political body (akin to a parliament) rather than as a scientific committee.
Glad to see your feedback from my provocation on physics, I’m a bit sceptical even about dark matter and dark energy, even that seems to me a bit ad hoc and made up just to make the back-of-the-envelope calculations add up.
As for your last paragraph though on free speech, that’s where I’d like the clarification and the bit of elaboration: how would one distinguish between noise and something which is to the point? We all believe that what we say is to the point, yet sometimes others decide that it is not and that it is mere noise or even worse, provocation, swearing, libel, and so on.
Definitely agreeing on experts and the problem of determination on who really is worth following. Unfortunately, we outsourced this problem to the markets and the best solution always gets paid—services and products always gets patronized by consumers. Capitalism ain’t perfect but it does have the best model so far for rewarding productive efforts.
btw please show me your presentation, give the link =)
So what I have a came across as the best option for distinguishing which decision, speech or action is on point and simply a distraction? Neitszche’s argument on truth—that truth serves life and anything that fails to frame his /her actions on serving the preservation of life is surely doing it wrongfully.
I’m afraid you’ll have to help me a bit on your last post, as two things weren’t clear to me: first, on experts, you first seem to qualify it as unfortunate that we pay for the best solution—and then you qualify capitalism (talk positively of it) in rewarding ‘productive efforts’. In these two sentences, are ‘the best solution’ and ′ productive efforts’ the same thing?
Also, on the second paragraph, I remember from back in the day that Nietzche was regarded as being a perspectivist on truth (truth through one’s own perspective), so I’d ask you to tell me which of the following you are arguing for, the preservation of (one’s) life (ie subjective) or the preservation of life (or even Life) in general? If the latter, then unfortunately my question persists, who decides about what is relevant for the preservation of Life in general? the biologists?
Do you have any other methods that is better in solving the problem of inequality other than the rewarded service or product by consumers? It is not a perfect solution because this system can also get corrupt (again human self interest as an issue) that is why I am not fully comfortable that we can go all in with capitalism towards the future - but it’s way better than communism. Sorry for my choice of descriptions to my ideas, I will try to be more clearer in this one and the succeeding replies.
Any decision that preserves human life and the natural world is what I refer as truthful. Why would arguing with a fireman from saving a burning house be debatable if you so believe that certain actions are not feasible? Too much of the semantics keeps us from really making viable solutions to the present and far future. Actions that matter preserves life. I am not asking you to agree with me but this concept have literally made me do a lot more than my previous mode where I just continiously ask questions and do not get things done.
I think some sort of status recognition, for example more participation in the decisions concering the collective could induce more equality—though to be honest i haven’t given this much thought. Maybe otherwise a redistribution of resources or starting from zero every few generations.
However, I cannot see how capitalism and giving money for solutions can do anything other than create and sustain inequality. I may be missing something from your reasoning.
Again, aiming for equality of outcomes is not a great idea for the reasons I have stated earlier. It’s an unsolveable problem.
Can you outline the reasons why you think capitalistic endeavors creates ONLY inequality? I mean isn’t the exchange of goods or services for credit and/or money a fair one?
You can also point out which of my reasoning is flawed.
Do you think there are unsolveable problems? Though about the specific one, I think it can be solved by a mix of selection or just by random selection of candidates (in the context of public decision-makers).
Mm to answer your second question first, I struggle to see the connection between fairness and the exchange of goods for money. For example, I could well envisage a gift economy or exchange of time instead of credit and material goods. Though again, not sure all of this would be fairer rather than just alternatives. I’ll have to look into the notion of fairness a bit more. I remember a bit of Rawls and justice as fairness, but I’ll have to spend some time dusting that up in order to have something interesting to say.
As for why I said exchange for money only produces inequality, i guess what i meant was that if one medium of the exchange (money) can be used for anything, whilst the other has specific uses, then I guess the person who ends up with the thing for anything is better off—especially if they start specialising in collecting this use-for-everything good and yardstick. In plain words, I guess if some people end up with more money and others with less, then that for me is inequality enough.
The problems under the Millenium prize that needs to be solve is a great sample of “unsolveable problems”. My day job currently is a accounting and operational control—and in my everyday experience—different sets of problems needs different sets of solutions, moreover the more difficult it is—the more expertise is required to solve problems quicker and cheaper. We do not outsource design issues to the design staff and vote for solutions—we go straight ahead for the Chief designer. There are many examples to be honest of how we aim to solve issues quicker and cheaper.....and heading directly to the experienced ones.
I do not again discount the role of corruption in producing inequalities all over the world, have seen this in the highest echelons of society upto the loweest form of governance—as corruption can trump any system of governance—even capitalism. Having said that, In great economies were an exchange between two people or entities happen after agreement—The role of money solves so many issues for both: 1) simplification of measurement, 2) easily accountable, 3) easily understood by all parties and even those not transacting (eg. banks and governments); 4) Accepted by all even banks and governments—and the list goes on...
Pareto principle is a terrible observation but it is a hard truth to swallow: why the strongest pride of lions gets to dominate the large swat of African wilderness, why 20% of clients drive the most revenue for any business, Why 20% of content drives 80% of the traffic in a website, and yeah 20% of the rich people accounts for 80% of the wealth. It is a trend that is observed that the more one has, the more opportunities it will gain and we do not have to agree with this terrible truth but it is happening not only in money but everything that requires a hierarchy or distribution. Again, I do not like this fact but unfortunately it is a phenomenon that keeps happening everywhere.
Thank you for your time here. And I appreciate all your thoughts, ideas.
First of all, it seems to me that your first paragraph on expertise seems to go against the firefighters (and free speech) example. As for money, I take home the standardizing function (what you label as simplification of measurement), however, about that and then about capitalism, I think we can agree to disagree as to what facts and truths are in this given discussion. I don’t think these facts are important for lions for example, so maybe we can try to live like lions? Or like foragers for example? :) (especially if we don’t all have the space constraint by all being constricted on Earth).
Many thanks for your ideas too, they’re good food for thought and a reality check for me!
I was expanding about the pareto principle concept which applies to not only humans, but everything that has hierarchies or distribution in it—computers, animals, money it applies...not only us. I do not say I agree with inequalities of distribution of wealth, resource, selection etc. But knowing it does exist in varying fields is very helpful especially in constructing better arguments.
As you may have found out by now, I’m sometimes a bit sceptical about such ‘scientific principles’ - also you may have seen what I hinted about before, that there have been human societies which didn’t have hierarchies, so it’s not totally not impossible.
I have seen records that even lobsters 350 million years ago share the same neuropharmacology with serotonin—the transmitter in our neurons for determining dominance hierarchies...that is actually as old as the first trees in the planet. The problem of inequality has been with us forever. Not only in humans—but nature has it too.
wow, that sounds really interesting, the lobsters evidence! Though if you ask most people they’ll probably say that humans are ‘something more’ than just animals, be they either god’s images or just rational beings (suggesting that other beings are less or not rational).
Yes Haris, the hard problem of inequality in nature, animals and us—existed a third of a billion years ago. That is why it’s not human only problem. I really do not have a viable one size fits all solution for inequality..
On Helene’s Paper and I stopped reading after this assumption -
I would agree on this if yes her claim that scenarios occur “all things are equal” can happen but unfortunately in reality it is not very feasible as again , equality of skills, talents and personalities never happens . Collective opportunity to speak and explain (freedom of speech) is very much encouraged but not all people that can speak can think well enough especially if the complexity of a certain issue is requiring technical ability. That Is why I believe EA projects geared towards prizing mechanisms for difficult problems is geared for those who can dissect and synthesize issues and bring light to them with a reward. EA does not survey their way for answers from the forum—they look for people who can directly solve the problem.
I hope there is just an easy answer to all of our aspirations for the future but I’m afraid we need the world’s brightest minds to bind together - those who can filter the complexity of physics, computational science, geometry, biology to find a proper solution to the far future.
Greetings, I just checked where the paragraph where you stopped is and it was in page 3 out of the 10 pages, I think you didn’t give poor Helene much of a chance, hehe :)
oh dear, can you tell me a little bit more about how EA works? I would try to propose ways of pooling collective wisdom to solve problems, I hope it doesn’t mean that I’m in the wrong place.
By the way, apologies if i delayed in answering this, I totally missed it and scrolled down luckily just now.
Just one question though: If you think that democracy has no value in giving answers to important questions, do you still value it and if so as what? Would you prefer rule by an englightened class of people, the knowledgeable ones? (it’s called epistocracy)
No worries on the delay. To answer your question on how EA works especially on difficult problems? I am not as familiar to the totality of Effective Altruism but my understanding is all are trying to solve issues as effectively as possible—in which is in line to for me to not seeing a mechanism where the average wisdom being utilized for grand scale issues. We are talking about difficult issues here, not average problems that we have solutions already.
Again, my understanding is the government might be reaching the limits of capacity to harnessing democracy as a prime selector of talent—politicians that we place in positions of responsibility and are unable to cope with the rapidly changing world that we have. I would not say that knowledgeable people are the ones should lead too...I will try to put a blog on this so I can answer the question extensively. I will link it here. Probably tomorrow.
Thank you for your questions. I read the powerpoint—I did not understand the flow, better send the actual presentation so maybe I can review it or try to explain it here.
Many thanks for this, quite thought-provoking. Looking forward to your blog post, I hope I can brag a bit that I played a role in it by giving you some food for thought :)
As for the powerpoint, mind telling me what you mean by flow? As unfortunately I don’t have the video for that one, we may have to go either with focussed questions or just a video session where I walk you through it. I suppose one think you can get started, do you know what ‘wicked problems’ are? You can get a bit of an idea about them by wikipedia, i trust the wisdom of the crowd on that (otherwise i can refer you to the original paper).
Thanks Haris, I will hit you up tomorrow once that blog about seeking talent is. This blog series btw are topics cited in the Project Ideas of Future Fund. I am just following that list—That is where the constitution of the future initially birthed.
Hmmm what does wicked problems refer? I mean to a degree—life is a tragic story so all problems in between seem wicked but for those who understand that meaning can be extracted from solving this problems—all are not as wicked or just merely “problems”.
Yeah if you can expand on what wicked problems are, that will be a good starting point.
Dear Miguel, so this Project Ideas of Future Fund gives out money for things such as a constitution for the future or other decision-making tools? You’re tempting me there, I’ll have to check it out.
You should check out the list on their page. I am just writing more as I learn deeper into the effective altruism world and hopefully get to join one of the organizations that are trying to make the world or the far future extremely good. Let me know your thoughts.
I’ll look into it, the wicked problem wiki and will let you know my ideas.
I’m here also because I want my life to have a bit more of an impact on others and the future. It’s a journey that I have only undertaken recently (I mean with EA), we’ll see where it leads me—you never know, we may end up working together, hehe :)
Yup, let me know of your ideas—it may even affect our discussion above about experts and problems.
Yes Haris! It will be an honor to work with you as you have the same energy as I am trying to understand the nature of each topics. Let’s talk more in the next topics. Share me some of your work if you need some opinions or comments too.
Excellent!! I saw you’ve posted on another topic but haven’t read it yet. At the moment I have no further work than what you can see on my Researchgate profile (where the link of the presentation you saw is) I’m mostly interested in decision-making and governance, though also with the AI/AGI alignement problem (though I don’t have the background in computing). I’m taking the policy-making course by an EA affiliated entity (it starts the week after next) and the EA course (was supposed to start yesterday, but will start next Tuesday) and in the meanwhile just scoping around for ideas.
I’m trying to expand my understanding with all the future ideas that is being tackled by EA...good luck with your course and let me know if you need someone to bounce around ideas. I would be more than happy to share my time dude.
Dear Miguel,
Good morning!! Ok, this is where I need to wave my hands around! First of all, I’ve listened and watched the video, and my gut reaction was similar to the grimaces of the lady in it, mostly that I wouldn’t want to have a drink at the pub with the main speaker. Why so in terms of arguments, I’m not yet sure (and they may come out slower today than yesterday when I was just throwing out things at you) sure—I think I would attack claims as callous what he says about everybody being free to exploit everybody else, also I’d attack what he says about the studies in Nature, by saying that Nature can also be guilty of (natural) scientizing things that it shouldn’t be scientizing, for example there’s a lot of social construction going on in the concepts involved in the study for Nature to be able to provide a natural angle to them and I think that’s evident in what he talks about (i can be forced to talk a bit more about this if you want me to explain a bit more).
Now, touching on other things briefly: I’ve looked up on wikipedia (another example of the wisdom of the many) the terms equality of opportunity and equality of outcome, I have to say that my gut says equality of outcome is very important and i’m all for. I think I can maybe turn this argument back into something where I may be more convincing, to the question of whether truth is easy or not to achieve and how (this would make us go through expertise and into the outcome-opportunity question, as in do we want the best to run our company/state or is there no such thing as ‘the best’?). Here’s the link to the researcher I mentioned and maybe a key paper, in it you can find the mathematical theorem (if you can’t find it then it won’t be hard for me to find it for you, I mean to go to the relevant footnote in the paper): https://yale.academia.edu/HeleneLandemore (the person) - and i think that’s the paper i’m referring to, the mathematical theorem must be in one of the footnotes if i remember correctly: https://www.academia.edu/31286808/Why_the_Many_Are_Smarter_than_the_Few_and_Why_It_Matters_Published_version_
As for the Constitution not having as its main business the wealth inequality because of the many deaths and suffering in 20th century regimes, I think you put it very elegantly, but I think we need to think about it. I remember once an anecdote that Lenin said sth like ‘but i want everybody to travel first class’ when it was pointed out to him that there were first and second classes in the trains, something like that.
As for Musk, I find his claims on free speech as very irresponsible, I find his move to ask the US government to pay him for the Ukrainians internet after the Ukrainians disagreed with his views callous (if he doesn’t want to intervene, then don’t intervene from the beginning, rather than flip-flopping—let the politics to the politicians, or then acknowledge his huge power). In general, I am very critical of him and Zuckerberg on pretending that their riches do not give them a political role. They are deeply political and they had better a) recognise this and b) behave responsibly with their wealth. Besides, as for Musk specifically, I don’t know if it’s true, but I’ve heard that a) the US government or other bodies helped him financially many times when he was in deep debt, despite his projections that he’s the best investor there is and b) one of his daughters changed her name so as not to be associated with him (not a good sign).
As for Dirac and Einstein, I would classify them along with great artists or sportsmen and music-people. What do you think about this idea? :)
Best Wishes,
Haris
Ps: i may be a bit slower in answering today, as I have some other things to read too—my heart is here though my head, enslaved by the capitalist logic that I have to put food on my table, says that I should focus on the other things too :)
Hi Haris,
No rush in replying and I appreciate your honesty and time on these concepts.
Equality of outcome is so difficult to achieve—how many race or ethnicities do we need to level down or up? How many age do we need to evaluate? do we prefer men or women? kids vs. Adults? Outcomes can never equalize no matter how hard we try and again, we tried it in communist countries as the idea of aiming utopias have birthed to the deaths of millions (Maoist China, Russia’s Stalin and Pot’s Cambodia). Equality of opportunities is what I prefer—all have the freedom to choose and opportunities are available to everyone.
I have not read Musk charging for his support in Ukraine so I need to read more—but if that is the case and there was no reason for it that is viable. But the free speech and buying twitter can become something that is worth to see in the coming months, I agree on his take on revamping the mechanism of twitter and make it more objective rather than subjective like the twitter board so its yet to see if his claims of freedom of speech will prosper. We will see.
I will read the one you attached here and will share my ideas later.
In some sense Dirac and Einstein are unique individuals like those that have talents similar to music and sports. But the works they did became foundations of other great things—the theoretical physicists have helped us paved the modern world like no other group has…
Again, no rush in commenting and i hope you have a great day today.
All the best.
Miguel
Dear Miguel,
Would lotteries and random selection (or a mix between random selection and CVs) be a way to secure equality of outcome? I actually agree with you that we can generate at nauseam differences that we’d have to level up or down (for example why not bald people if we accept people with more obvious disabilities or whatever), I am a big fan of lotteries though—you may find some examples how this can be achieved (and some arguments for) in Landemore’s work.
To be honest, I don’t use Twitter and know even less about how it works. However I do remember that even J.S. Mill in his classic work on free speech makes the point that there’s a time and a place where you can say certain things, let’s say you for example it’d be irresponsible to argue that firefighters are against the state in front of a burning building.
As for Dirac and Einstein, one question, are you aware of the state of modern theoretical physics? If you thought that Quantum Mechanics and Einstein’s cat example was crazy, what do you make of parallel universes, dark matter and simulation? for me, these are far beyond fairy tales as regards their nonfalsifiability and fanciness. It’s just fanciness with a few numbers thrown in :)
Best Wishes,
Haris
Hi Haris,
Thank you for your swift reply!
I would be okay with lotteries as a solution for simple problem eg. distributing small amounts of wealth—but in solving mind bending issues that humanity face, We need the best of the best and them being agreeing together for the benefit of all.
I’m perfectly aware of the stagnation and the fall of string theory to deliver its promises—thus staining the legacy of those that walked before them in the field of physics. We are in need of new solutions—resource distribution and allocation is a big component of how multiple worlds thrive. I’m in the middle as far as parallel universes and simulation as there is no evidence to the contrary though dark matter is something that can be better studied through experiments and observations—maybe the JWT (James Webb Telescope) can help in making better data captures for future modeling / measurements...
Free speech out of context is not free speech and basically just being either noisy or disturbing. I argue for free speech that is on point and not out of context.
Hope I explained myself well in this one. Let me know of any more clarifications needing to be addressed.
All the best,
Miguel
Dear Miguel,
Greetings! Thanks for your well-thought out answer, don’t worry, you’ve expressed yourself perfectly well (apart from one clarification that i’ll ask below!).
First of all, I’d like to push you a bit on the experts and the best outcome. A problem would be the problem of legitimacy, without which you just won’t get people to do what the experts want them to do (for example on climate change). I have argued in the past (in the 15min video that i told you i could send you or in a powerpoint i can send you of another conference) that scientific expertise (the best of the best as you say agreeing among themselves) may not be sufficient to compel citizens to action, and that this may be achieved better if the deliberating body is seen as a political body (akin to a parliament) rather than as a scientific committee.
Glad to see your feedback from my provocation on physics, I’m a bit sceptical even about dark matter and dark energy, even that seems to me a bit ad hoc and made up just to make the back-of-the-envelope calculations add up.
As for your last paragraph though on free speech, that’s where I’d like the clarification and the bit of elaboration: how would one distinguish between noise and something which is to the point? We all believe that what we say is to the point, yet sometimes others decide that it is not and that it is mere noise or even worse, provocation, swearing, libel, and so on.
Best Wishes,
Haris
Hi Haris,
Definitely agreeing on experts and the problem of determination on who really is worth following. Unfortunately, we outsourced this problem to the markets and the best solution always gets paid—services and products always gets patronized by consumers. Capitalism ain’t perfect but it does have the best model so far for rewarding productive efforts.
btw please show me your presentation, give the link =)
So what I have a came across as the best option for distinguishing which decision, speech or action is on point and simply a distraction? Neitszche’s argument on truth—that truth serves life and anything that fails to frame his /her actions on serving the preservation of life is surely doing it wrongfully.
Hope I brought better ideas in this reply,
All the best,
Miguel
Dear Miguel,
Hi, hope you and yours are all well!
I’m afraid you’ll have to help me a bit on your last post, as two things weren’t clear to me: first, on experts, you first seem to qualify it as unfortunate that we pay for the best solution—and then you qualify capitalism (talk positively of it) in rewarding ‘productive efforts’. In these two sentences, are ‘the best solution’ and ′ productive efforts’ the same thing?
Also, on the second paragraph, I remember from back in the day that Nietzche was regarded as being a perspectivist on truth (truth through one’s own perspective), so I’d ask you to tell me which of the following you are arguing for, the preservation of (one’s) life (ie subjective) or the preservation of life (or even Life) in general? If the latter, then unfortunately my question persists, who decides about what is relevant for the preservation of Life in general? the biologists?
As for the presentation, let me find it, I think it’s this one: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/326829642_Scientific_Expert_Committees_Wicked_Problems_and_Procedure
I’d be happy to revisit it and discuss it :)
Best Wishes,
Haris
Hi Haris,
All is well, thanks. Hope you are well too.
Do you have any other methods that is better in solving the problem of inequality other than the rewarded service or product by consumers? It is not a perfect solution because this system can also get corrupt (again human self interest as an issue) that is why I am not fully comfortable that we can go all in with capitalism towards the future - but it’s way better than communism. Sorry for my choice of descriptions to my ideas, I will try to be more clearer in this one and the succeeding replies.
Any decision that preserves human life and the natural world is what I refer as truthful. Why would arguing with a fireman from saving a burning house be debatable if you so believe that certain actions are not feasible? Too much of the semantics keeps us from really making viable solutions to the present and far future. Actions that matter preserves life. I am not asking you to agree with me but this concept have literally made me do a lot more than my previous mode where I just continiously ask questions and do not get things done.
All the best,
Miguel
Dear Miguel,
I think some sort of status recognition, for example more participation in the decisions concering the collective could induce more equality—though to be honest i haven’t given this much thought. Maybe otherwise a redistribution of resources or starting from zero every few generations.
However, I cannot see how capitalism and giving money for solutions can do anything other than create and sustain inequality. I may be missing something from your reasoning.
Best Wishes,
Haris
Hi Haris,
Again, aiming for equality of outcomes is not a great idea for the reasons I have stated earlier. It’s an unsolveable problem.
Can you outline the reasons why you think capitalistic endeavors creates ONLY inequality? I mean isn’t the exchange of goods or services for credit and/or money a fair one?
You can also point out which of my reasoning is flawed.
All the best,
Miguel
Dear Miguel,
Do you think there are unsolveable problems? Though about the specific one, I think it can be solved by a mix of selection or just by random selection of candidates (in the context of public decision-makers).
Mm to answer your second question first, I struggle to see the connection between fairness and the exchange of goods for money. For example, I could well envisage a gift economy or exchange of time instead of credit and material goods. Though again, not sure all of this would be fairer rather than just alternatives. I’ll have to look into the notion of fairness a bit more. I remember a bit of Rawls and justice as fairness, but I’ll have to spend some time dusting that up in order to have something interesting to say.
As for why I said exchange for money only produces inequality, i guess what i meant was that if one medium of the exchange (money) can be used for anything, whilst the other has specific uses, then I guess the person who ends up with the thing for anything is better off—especially if they start specialising in collecting this use-for-everything good and yardstick. In plain words, I guess if some people end up with more money and others with less, then that for me is inequality enough.
Best Wishes,
Haris
Hi Haris,
The problems under the Millenium prize that needs to be solve is a great sample of “unsolveable problems”. My day job currently is a accounting and operational control—and in my everyday experience—different sets of problems needs different sets of solutions, moreover the more difficult it is—the more expertise is required to solve problems quicker and cheaper. We do not outsource design issues to the design staff and vote for solutions—we go straight ahead for the Chief designer. There are many examples to be honest of how we aim to solve issues quicker and cheaper.....and heading directly to the experienced ones.
I do not again discount the role of corruption in producing inequalities all over the world, have seen this in the highest echelons of society upto the loweest form of governance—as corruption can trump any system of governance—even capitalism. Having said that, In great economies were an exchange between two people or entities happen after agreement—The role of money solves so many issues for both: 1) simplification of measurement, 2) easily accountable, 3) easily understood by all parties and even those not transacting (eg. banks and governments); 4) Accepted by all even banks and governments—and the list goes on...
Pareto principle is a terrible observation but it is a hard truth to swallow: why the strongest pride of lions gets to dominate the large swat of African wilderness, why 20% of clients drive the most revenue for any business, Why 20% of content drives 80% of the traffic in a website, and yeah 20% of the rich people accounts for 80% of the wealth. It is a trend that is observed that the more one has, the more opportunities it will gain and we do not have to agree with this terrible truth but it is happening not only in money but everything that requires a hierarchy or distribution. Again, I do not like this fact but unfortunately it is a phenomenon that keeps happening everywhere.
Thank you for your time here. And I appreciate all your thoughts, ideas.
All the best,
Miguel
Dear Miguel,
First of all, it seems to me that your first paragraph on expertise seems to go against the firefighters (and free speech) example. As for money, I take home the standardizing function (what you label as simplification of measurement), however, about that and then about capitalism, I think we can agree to disagree as to what facts and truths are in this given discussion. I don’t think these facts are important for lions for example, so maybe we can try to live like lions? Or like foragers for example? :) (especially if we don’t all have the space constraint by all being constricted on Earth).
Many thanks for your ideas too, they’re good food for thought and a reality check for me!
Best Wishes,
Haris
Hi Haris,
I was expanding about the pareto principle concept which applies to not only humans, but everything that has hierarchies or distribution in it—computers, animals, money it applies...not only us. I do not say I agree with inequalities of distribution of wealth, resource, selection etc. But knowing it does exist in varying fields is very helpful especially in constructing better arguments.
All the best,
Miguel
Hey hello,
As you may have found out by now, I’m sometimes a bit sceptical about such ‘scientific principles’ - also you may have seen what I hinted about before, that there have been human societies which didn’t have hierarchies, so it’s not totally not impossible.
Best Wishes,
Haris
Hi Haris,
I have seen records that even lobsters 350 million years ago share the same neuropharmacology with serotonin—the transmitter in our neurons for determining dominance hierarchies...that is actually as old as the first trees in the planet. The problem of inequality has been with us forever. Not only in humans—but nature has it too.
All the best,
Miguel
Hey hello,
wow, that sounds really interesting, the lobsters evidence! Though if you ask most people they’ll probably say that humans are ‘something more’ than just animals, be they either god’s images or just rational beings (suggesting that other beings are less or not rational).
Best Wishes,
Haris
Yes Haris, the hard problem of inequality in nature, animals and us—existed a third of a billion years ago. That is why it’s not human only problem. I really do not have a viable one size fits all solution for inequality..
All the best,
Miguel
Hello Harris,
On Helene’s Paper and I stopped reading after this assumption -
I would agree on this if yes her claim that scenarios occur “all things are equal” can happen but unfortunately in reality it is not very feasible as again , equality of skills, talents and personalities never happens . Collective opportunity to speak and explain (freedom of speech) is very much encouraged but not all people that can speak can think well enough especially if the complexity of a certain issue is requiring technical ability. That Is why I believe EA projects geared towards prizing mechanisms for difficult problems is geared for those who can dissect and synthesize issues and bring light to them with a reward. EA does not survey their way for answers from the forum—they look for people who can directly solve the problem.
I hope there is just an easy answer to all of our aspirations for the future but I’m afraid we need the world’s brightest minds to bind together - those who can filter the complexity of physics, computational science, geometry, biology to find a proper solution to the far future.
Thank you though for sharing, All the best.
Miguel
Dear Miguel,
Greetings, I just checked where the paragraph where you stopped is and it was in page 3 out of the 10 pages, I think you didn’t give poor Helene much of a chance, hehe :)
oh dear, can you tell me a little bit more about how EA works? I would try to propose ways of pooling collective wisdom to solve problems, I hope it doesn’t mean that I’m in the wrong place.
By the way, apologies if i delayed in answering this, I totally missed it and scrolled down luckily just now.
Just one question though: If you think that democracy has no value in giving answers to important questions, do you still value it and if so as what? Would you prefer rule by an englightened class of people, the knowledgeable ones? (it’s called epistocracy)
Best Wishes,
Haris
Hi Haris,
No worries on the delay. To answer your question on how EA works especially on difficult problems? I am not as familiar to the totality of Effective Altruism but my understanding is all are trying to solve issues as effectively as possible—in which is in line to for me to not seeing a mechanism where the average wisdom being utilized for grand scale issues. We are talking about difficult issues here, not average problems that we have solutions already.
Again, my understanding is the government might be reaching the limits of capacity to harnessing democracy as a prime selector of talent—politicians that we place in positions of responsibility and are unable to cope with the rapidly changing world that we have. I would not say that knowledgeable people are the ones should lead too...I will try to put a blog on this so I can answer the question extensively. I will link it here. Probably tomorrow.
Thank you for your questions. I read the powerpoint—I did not understand the flow, better send the actual presentation so maybe I can review it or try to explain it here.
All the best,
Haris
Dear Miguel,
Many thanks for this, quite thought-provoking. Looking forward to your blog post, I hope I can brag a bit that I played a role in it by giving you some food for thought :)
As for the powerpoint, mind telling me what you mean by flow? As unfortunately I don’t have the video for that one, we may have to go either with focussed questions or just a video session where I walk you through it. I suppose one think you can get started, do you know what ‘wicked problems’ are? You can get a bit of an idea about them by wikipedia, i trust the wisdom of the crowd on that (otherwise i can refer you to the original paper).
Best Wishes,
Haris (not Miguel, see above, hehe)
Hi Haris,
Thanks Haris, I will hit you up tomorrow once that blog about seeking talent is. This blog series btw are topics cited in the Project Ideas of Future Fund. I am just following that list—That is where the constitution of the future initially birthed.
Hmmm what does wicked problems refer? I mean to a degree—life is a tragic story so all problems in between seem wicked but for those who understand that meaning can be extracted from solving this problems—all are not as wicked or just merely “problems”.
Yeah if you can expand on what wicked problems are, that will be a good starting point.
All the best,
Miguel
Dear Miguel, so this Project Ideas of Future Fund gives out money for things such as a constitution for the future or other decision-making tools? You’re tempting me there, I’ll have to check it out.
As for wicked problems, here’s the wikipedia post, it’s a bit more specific than what you mention there, let’s see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicked_problem this could be a good start.
Best Wishes,
Haris
Hi Harris,
You should check out the list on their page. I am just writing more as I learn deeper into the effective altruism world and hopefully get to join one of the organizations that are trying to make the world or the far future extremely good. Let me know your thoughts.
I’ll look into it, the wicked problem wiki and will let you know my ideas.
All the best,
Miguel
Dear Miguel, thanks I’ll check them out!
I’m here also because I want my life to have a bit more of an impact on others and the future. It’s a journey that I have only undertaken recently (I mean with EA), we’ll see where it leads me—you never know, we may end up working together, hehe :)
Yup, let me know of your ideas—it may even affect our discussion above about experts and problems.
Best Wishes,
Haris
Yes Haris! It will be an honor to work with you as you have the same energy as I am trying to understand the nature of each topics. Let’s talk more in the next topics. Share me some of your work if you need some opinions or comments too.
All the best,
Miguel
Dear Miguel,
Excellent!! I saw you’ve posted on another topic but haven’t read it yet. At the moment I have no further work than what you can see on my Researchgate profile (where the link of the presentation you saw is) I’m mostly interested in decision-making and governance, though also with the AI/AGI alignement problem (though I don’t have the background in computing). I’m taking the policy-making course by an EA affiliated entity (it starts the week after next) and the EA course (was supposed to start yesterday, but will start next Tuesday) and in the meanwhile just scoping around for ideas.
Best Wishes,
Haris
Yes Harris,
I’m trying to expand my understanding with all the future ideas that is being tackled by EA...good luck with your course and let me know if you need someone to bounce around ideas. I would be more than happy to share my time dude.
All the best,
Miguel
Hey hello,
Thanks, let’s digest stuff a bit in the next few days and see how it goes. Thanks for the offer, same goes for me, at the moment I’ve got time! :)
Best Wishes,
Haris
Thank you for your time on my blog post Haris, really appreciate it!