A quick point of clarification that Phil Torres was never staff at CSER; he was a visitor for a couple of months a few years ago. He has unfortunately misrepresented himself as working at CSER on various media (unclear if deliberate or not). (And FWIW he has made similar allusions, albeit thinly veiled, about me).
I’m really sorry to hear that from both of you, I agree it’s a serious accusation.
For longtermism as a whole, as I argued in the post, I don’t understand describing it as white supremacy—like e.g. antiracism or feminism, longtermism is opposed to an unjust power structure.
If you agree it is a serious and baseless allegation, why do you keep engaging with him? The time to stop engaging with him was several years ago. You had sufficient evidence to do so at least two years ago, and I know that because I presented you with it, e.g. when he started casually throwing around rape allegations about celebrities on facebook and tagging me in the comments, and then calling me and others nazis. Why do you and your colleagues continue to extensively collaborate with him?
To reiterate, the arguments he makes are not sincere: he only makes them because he thinks the people in question have wronged him.
[disclaimer: I am co-Director at CSER. While much of what I will write intersects with professional responsibilities, it is primarily written from a personal perspective, as this is a deeply personal matter for me. Apologies in advance if that’s confusing, this is a distressing and difficult topic for me, and I may come back and edit. I may also delete my comment, for professional or personal/emotional reasons].
I am sympathetic to Halstead’s position here, and feel I need to write my own perspective. Clearly to the extent that CSER has—whether directly or indirectly—served to legitimise such attacks by Torres on colleagues in the field, I bear a portion of responsibility as someone in a leadership position. I do not feel it would be right or appropriate for me to speak for all colleagues, but I would like to emphasise that individually I do not, in any way, condone this conduct, and I apologise for it, and for any failings on my individual part that may have contributed.
My personal impression supports the case Halstead makes. Comments about my ‘whiteness’, and insinuations regarding my ‘real’ reasons for objecting to positions taken by Torres only came after I objected publicly to Torres’s characterisations of Halstead, Olle Hagstrom, Nick Beckstead, Toby Ord and others. I have been informed by Torres that I owe him an apology for not siding with him [edit: to emphasise, this is my personal subjective impression/interpretation based on communications with me].
As well as the personal motivation, this mode of engagement reflects another aspect of this discourse I find deeply troubling: while I think there are valid arguments against longtermism, and alternative perspectives, it becomes impossible to discuss the issues, and in particular, the unfair characterisation of individuals, on the object level. Object level disagreement is met with an insinuation that this is the white supremacists closing ranks. I do believe there is a valid argument in some cases that one can be unaware of biases, and one can be unconsciously influenced by the ‘background radiation’ of a privileged society. Personally I have experienced this in unconscious, and sometimes deliberate, racism experienced as an Irish person living in Britain, and I have no doubt that non-white people have it much worse. However, this principle can also most certainly be overused uncharitably, or even ‘weaponised’ to shut down constructive intellectual engagement. And it is profoundly anti-intellectual to permit only those from outside a system of privilege to challenge scholarship.
There are other rhetorical moves I find deeply troubling. The common-society use of ‘white supremacy’ is something like “people who believe that white people are superior to other races and should dominate them; and are willing to act on that through violent means.”. Torres has typically not defined the term, but when challenged, he has explained that he is using the term in the more narrowly-used way used in critical race theory; of “of white people benefiting from and maintaining a system where the legacy of colonial privilege is maintained”. (note that he does define it in the mini-book, although as the ‘academic’ definition, which I think is overstatement). When challenged, Torres insults people for not automatically knowing he is using the more esoteric CRT definition rather than the common-use definition. This is not a reasonable position to take. And it is not reasonable to expect people not to be deeply hurt and offended by the language used.
Even accounting for the CRT definition, this is still an extremely serious and harmful accusation, and one that should not be made without extremely careful consideration and very strong evidence. In my own case, as someone from a culture overwhelmingly defined by the harms of colonialism, it is another way of shutting down any possible discussion; it is so violently upsetting that it renders me incapable of continuing to engage.
To the extent that scholars at CSER are still collaborating with Torres: I am not. I have spoken regarding my concerns to those who have let me know they are still collaborating with him, and have let them make their own choices. Most collaborations are the legacy of projects initiated during his visit 2 years ago (which I authorised, not knowing some of the more serious issue Halstead raises, but being aware of some more minor concerns). Papers take a long time to go through the academic system, and it would be a very unusual and hostile step to e.g. take an author’s name off a paper against their wishes. In some instances, people wished to engage with some aspects of Torres’ critique and collaborate with presenting them in a more constructive and less polemical way (e.g. see several examples of Beard+Torres). I have respected their choices. This may not be the case with all collaborations; at CSER’s current size I am not always aware of every paper being written. But I think it is fair to say my view on this style of engagement are well-known.
I have not taken the step of banning colleagues at CSER from collaborating with Torres. This would be an extremely unusual step in academia, running contrary to some fundamental principles of academic freedom. Further, I am concerned that such steps would reinforce another set of attack lines: Torres has already publicly claimed that he ‘has no doubt’ that employees at CSER that disagreed with me would be fired for it. I value having scope for intellectual disagreement greatly, and I would not want this perspective to take hold.
I do not claim that my decisions have been correct.
I do think there is significant value in engaging with critics. I admire engagement of the sort that Haydn has just undertaken. As a committed longtermist, to ‘turn the other cheek’ and engage in good faith with a steelmanned, charitable interpretation of a polemical and hostile document is something I find admirable in itself. And as noted elsewhere in this discussion, enough people have found some value in the challenge Torres has presented to ideas within longtermism (even where presented uncharitably) that it seems reasonable for some to engage with it. However at the same time, I do worry that beyond some point, engaging so charitably may legitimise a mode of discourse that I find distressingly hostile and inimical to kind and constructive, and open discourse.
These are challenging, and sometimes controversial topics. There will very often be issues on which reasonable people will disagree. There will sometimes be positions taken that others will be profoundly uncomfortable with. This is not unique to Xrisk or longtermism; the same is true of global development and animal rights. I believe it is of paramount importance that we be able to interact with each other as thinkers and doers in a kind, constructive and charitable way; and above all to adopt these principles when we critique each other. After all, when we are wrong, this is nearly always the most effective way to change minds. While not everyone will agree with me on this, this is the view I have always put forward in the centres I have been a part of.
Addendum: There’s a saying that “no matter what side of an argument you’re on, you’ll always find someone on your side who you wish was on the other side”.
There is a seam running through Torres’s work that challenges xrisk/longtermism/EA on the grounds of the limitations of being led and formulated by a mostly elite, developed-world community.
Like many people in longtermism/xrisk, I think there is a valid concern here. xrisk/longtermism/EA all started in a combination of elite british universities + US communities e.g. bay. They had to start somewhere. I am of the view that they shouldn’t stay that way.
I think it’s valid to ask whether there are assumptions embedded within these frameworks at this stage that should be challenged, and to posit that these would be challenged most effectively by people with a very different background and perspective. I think it’s valid to argue that thinking, planning for, and efforts to shape the long-term future should not be driven by a community that is overwhelmingly from one particular background and that doesn’t draw on and incorporate the perspectives of a community that reflects more of global societies and cultures. Work by such a community would likely miss important values and considerations, might reflect founder-effect biases, and would lack legitimacy and buy-in when it came to implementation. I think it’s valid to expect it to engage with frameworks beyond utilitarianism, and I’m pleased to see GPI, The Precipice, amongst others do this.
As both xrisk and longtermism grow and mature, a core part of the project should be, in my view, and likely will be, expanding beyond this starting point. Such efforts are underway. They take a long time. And I would like to see people, both internal and external to the community, challenge the community on this where needed .
However, for someone on this side of the argument, I am deeply frustrated by Torres’s approach. It salts the earth for engagement with people who disagree with this view and actively works against finding common ground. It alienates people from diverse backgrounds outside xrisk/longtermism from engaging with xrisk/longtermism, and thus makes the project harder. And it strengthens the views of those who disagree with the case I’ve put, especially when they perceive those they disagree with acting in bad faith. The book ends with the claim “More than anything, I want this mini-book to help rehabilitate “longtermism,” and hence Existential Risk Studies.” I do not believe this hostile, polemical approach serves that aim; rather I worry that it is undermining it.
Again, Sean, more intellectual dishonesty: “I have been informed by Torres that I owe him an apology for not siding with him.” I’m tempted to take screenshots and share them here. These are lies.
I don’t have any comment to make about Torres or his motives (I think I was in a room with him once). However, as a more general point, I think it can still make sense to engage with someone’s arguments, whatever their motivation, at least if there are other people who take them seriously. I also don’t have a view on whether others in the longtermism/X-risk world do take Torres’s concern seriously, it’s not really my patch.
“He has unfortunately misrepresented himself as working at CSER on various media (unclear if deliberate or not).” No, I haven’t, Sean, and you know this from our personal exchanges. I forgot to change the CSER affiliation on FB—and only FB—for a few months after leaving. As soon as you pointed it out, I changed it immediately. Your intellectual dishonesty here is really upsetting.
I don’t know how to embed snapshots, but anyone who wishes is welcome to type “phil torres” into linkedin or email me for the snapshots I’ve just taken right now—it brings up “Researcher at Centre for the Study of Existential Risk, University of Cambridge”. As I say, it’s unclear if this is deliberate—it may well be an oversight, but it has contributed to the mistaken external impression that Phil Torres is or was research staff at CSER.
That I didn’t know about, Sean, nor did you mention it. If you look at my profile, it hasn’t been updated in years. (It says that I still write for Motherboard and live in Carrboro, which haven’t been the case for years.)
You repeatedly lied if your comments above. Unprofessional. I don’t know how you can keep your job while lying about a colleague like that. I will delete the LinkedIn profile immediately. I honestly didn’t even remember that I had it. Had you mentioned it earlier, of course I would have
Your malicious behavior here is unacceptable. I have been nothing but willing to apologize, concede points, reconsider ideas, and change my views in response to you. When you’ve been rude and hurtful to me, and I’ve asked for an apology, you’ve refused.
[Apologies for getting mad. But the truth is, being lied about is upsetting, and as a human being, it would be odd if I weren’t hurt.]
Haydn, Michael Plant, etc. etc. I am happy to release screenshots of everything to show that Sean is lying. Over and over again, above, he lies. Here is proof of his lie about about me “misrepresenting [myself] as working at CSER on various media (unclear if deliberate or not).” I absolutely did no such thing! The only medium this was an issue on was FB, and I corrected it immediately (although there was some delay, for reasons I don’t understand) with an explicit apology (because, I say in the screenshot from 2019, I genuinely, honestly didn’t realize that it still says “works at”). Indeed, throughout our exchanges, I am repeatedly open and receptive to criticisms, constantly hedging, frequently apologizing, while Sean is, well, not exactly the interlocutor I’d hoped. Ask me about any of his silly, hurtful accusations above and I’ll address them with verifiable evidence. What is wrong with this community? https://c8df8822-f112-4676-8332-ad89713358e3.filesusr.com/ugd/d9aaad_d37202b3a9014315ba15d1220421d682.pdf (Check timestamps, please. I think one screenshot is out of order—apologies for that.)
How can someone lie this much about a colleague and still have a job?
A quick point of clarification that Phil Torres was never staff at CSER; he was a visitor for a couple of months a few years ago. He has unfortunately misrepresented himself as working at CSER on various media (unclear if deliberate or not). (And FWIW he has made similar allusions, albeit thinly veiled, about me).
I’m really sorry to hear that from both of you, I agree it’s a serious accusation.
For longtermism as a whole, as I argued in the post, I don’t understand describing it as white supremacy—like e.g. antiracism or feminism, longtermism is opposed to an unjust power structure.
If you agree it is a serious and baseless allegation, why do you keep engaging with him? The time to stop engaging with him was several years ago. You had sufficient evidence to do so at least two years ago, and I know that because I presented you with it, e.g. when he started casually throwing around rape allegations about celebrities on facebook and tagging me in the comments, and then calling me and others nazis. Why do you and your colleagues continue to extensively collaborate with him?
To reiterate, the arguments he makes are not sincere: he only makes them because he thinks the people in question have wronged him.
[disclaimer: I am co-Director at CSER. While much of what I will write intersects with professional responsibilities, it is primarily written from a personal perspective, as this is a deeply personal matter for me. Apologies in advance if that’s confusing, this is a distressing and difficult topic for me, and I may come back and edit. I may also delete my comment, for professional or personal/emotional reasons].
I am sympathetic to Halstead’s position here, and feel I need to write my own perspective. Clearly to the extent that CSER has—whether directly or indirectly—served to legitimise such attacks by Torres on colleagues in the field, I bear a portion of responsibility as someone in a leadership position. I do not feel it would be right or appropriate for me to speak for all colleagues, but I would like to emphasise that individually I do not, in any way, condone this conduct, and I apologise for it, and for any failings on my individual part that may have contributed.
My personal impression supports the case Halstead makes. Comments about my ‘whiteness’, and insinuations regarding my ‘real’ reasons for objecting to positions taken by Torres only came after I objected publicly to Torres’s characterisations of Halstead, Olle Hagstrom, Nick Beckstead, Toby Ord and others. I have been informed by Torres that I owe him an apology for not siding with him [edit: to emphasise, this is my personal subjective impression/interpretation based on communications with me].
As well as the personal motivation, this mode of engagement reflects another aspect of this discourse I find deeply troubling: while I think there are valid arguments against longtermism, and alternative perspectives, it becomes impossible to discuss the issues, and in particular, the unfair characterisation of individuals, on the object level. Object level disagreement is met with an insinuation that this is the white supremacists closing ranks. I do believe there is a valid argument in some cases that one can be unaware of biases, and one can be unconsciously influenced by the ‘background radiation’ of a privileged society. Personally I have experienced this in unconscious, and sometimes deliberate, racism experienced as an Irish person living in Britain, and I have no doubt that non-white people have it much worse. However, this principle can also most certainly be overused uncharitably, or even ‘weaponised’ to shut down constructive intellectual engagement. And it is profoundly anti-intellectual to permit only those from outside a system of privilege to challenge scholarship.
There are other rhetorical moves I find deeply troubling. The common-society use of ‘white supremacy’ is something like “people who believe that white people are superior to other races and should dominate them; and are willing to act on that through violent means.”. Torres has typically not defined the term, but when challenged, he has explained that he is using the term in the more narrowly-used way used in critical race theory; of “of white people benefiting from and maintaining a system where the legacy of colonial privilege is maintained”. (note that he does define it in the mini-book, although as the ‘academic’ definition, which I think is overstatement). When challenged, Torres insults people for not automatically knowing he is using the more esoteric CRT definition rather than the common-use definition. This is not a reasonable position to take. And it is not reasonable to expect people not to be deeply hurt and offended by the language used.
Even accounting for the CRT definition, this is still an extremely serious and harmful accusation, and one that should not be made without extremely careful consideration and very strong evidence. In my own case, as someone from a culture overwhelmingly defined by the harms of colonialism, it is another way of shutting down any possible discussion; it is so violently upsetting that it renders me incapable of continuing to engage.
To the extent that scholars at CSER are still collaborating with Torres: I am not. I have spoken regarding my concerns to those who have let me know they are still collaborating with him, and have let them make their own choices. Most collaborations are the legacy of projects initiated during his visit 2 years ago (which I authorised, not knowing some of the more serious issue Halstead raises, but being aware of some more minor concerns). Papers take a long time to go through the academic system, and it would be a very unusual and hostile step to e.g. take an author’s name off a paper against their wishes. In some instances, people wished to engage with some aspects of Torres’ critique and collaborate with presenting them in a more constructive and less polemical way (e.g. see several examples of Beard+Torres). I have respected their choices. This may not be the case with all collaborations; at CSER’s current size I am not always aware of every paper being written. But I think it is fair to say my view on this style of engagement are well-known.
I have not taken the step of banning colleagues at CSER from collaborating with Torres. This would be an extremely unusual step in academia, running contrary to some fundamental principles of academic freedom. Further, I am concerned that such steps would reinforce another set of attack lines: Torres has already publicly claimed that he ‘has no doubt’ that employees at CSER that disagreed with me would be fired for it. I value having scope for intellectual disagreement greatly, and I would not want this perspective to take hold.
I do not claim that my decisions have been correct.
I do think there is significant value in engaging with critics. I admire engagement of the sort that Haydn has just undertaken. As a committed longtermist, to ‘turn the other cheek’ and engage in good faith with a steelmanned, charitable interpretation of a polemical and hostile document is something I find admirable in itself. And as noted elsewhere in this discussion, enough people have found some value in the challenge Torres has presented to ideas within longtermism (even where presented uncharitably) that it seems reasonable for some to engage with it. However at the same time, I do worry that beyond some point, engaging so charitably may legitimise a mode of discourse that I find distressingly hostile and inimical to kind and constructive, and open discourse.
These are challenging, and sometimes controversial topics. There will very often be issues on which reasonable people will disagree. There will sometimes be positions taken that others will be profoundly uncomfortable with. This is not unique to Xrisk or longtermism; the same is true of global development and animal rights. I believe it is of paramount importance that we be able to interact with each other as thinkers and doers in a kind, constructive and charitable way; and above all to adopt these principles when we critique each other. After all, when we are wrong, this is nearly always the most effective way to change minds. While not everyone will agree with me on this, this is the view I have always put forward in the centres I have been a part of.
Addendum: There’s a saying that “no matter what side of an argument you’re on, you’ll always find someone on your side who you wish was on the other side”.
There is a seam running through Torres’s work that challenges xrisk/longtermism/EA on the grounds of the limitations of being led and formulated by a mostly elite, developed-world community.
Like many people in longtermism/xrisk, I think there is a valid concern here. xrisk/longtermism/EA all started in a combination of elite british universities + US communities e.g. bay. They had to start somewhere. I am of the view that they shouldn’t stay that way.
I think it’s valid to ask whether there are assumptions embedded within these frameworks at this stage that should be challenged, and to posit that these would be challenged most effectively by people with a very different background and perspective. I think it’s valid to argue that thinking, planning for, and efforts to shape the long-term future should not be driven by a community that is overwhelmingly from one particular background and that doesn’t draw on and incorporate the perspectives of a community that reflects more of global societies and cultures. Work by such a community would likely miss important values and considerations, might reflect founder-effect biases, and would lack legitimacy and buy-in when it came to implementation. I think it’s valid to expect it to engage with frameworks beyond utilitarianism, and I’m pleased to see GPI, The Precipice, amongst others do this.
As both xrisk and longtermism grow and mature, a core part of the project should be, in my view, and likely will be, expanding beyond this starting point. Such efforts are underway. They take a long time. And I would like to see people, both internal and external to the community, challenge the community on this where needed .
However, for someone on this side of the argument, I am deeply frustrated by Torres’s approach. It salts the earth for engagement with people who disagree with this view and actively works against finding common ground. It alienates people from diverse backgrounds outside xrisk/longtermism from engaging with xrisk/longtermism, and thus makes the project harder. And it strengthens the views of those who disagree with the case I’ve put, especially when they perceive those they disagree with acting in bad faith. The book ends with the claim “More than anything, I want this mini-book to help rehabilitate “longtermism,” and hence Existential Risk Studies.” I do not believe this hostile, polemical approach serves that aim; rather I worry that it is undermining it.
I completely agree with all of this, and am glad you laid it out so clearly.
Seconded.
I just wanted to say that this is a beautiful comment. Thank you for sharing your perspective in such an elegant, careful and nuanced manner.
Again, Sean, more intellectual dishonesty: “I have been informed by Torres that I owe him an apology for not siding with him.” I’m tempted to take screenshots and share them here. These are lies.
I am trying to stay calm, but I am honestly pretty f*cking upset that you repeatedly lie in your comments above, Sean. See here for a screenshot: https://c8df8822-f112-4676-8332-ffffad89713358e3.filesusr.com/ugd/d9aaad_5494c7f6e8034730afb01cdbc9bd5a62.pdf. I won’t include your response, Sean, because I’m not a jerk like you.
The link above has an additional ”.” at the end that prevents it from properly working.
(Sorry for cursing. The dishonest rancor of Sean is just pretty hard to deal with.)
I don’t have any comment to make about Torres or his motives (I think I was in a room with him once). However, as a more general point, I think it can still make sense to engage with someone’s arguments, whatever their motivation, at least if there are other people who take them seriously. I also don’t have a view on whether others in the longtermism/X-risk world do take Torres’s concern seriously, it’s not really my patch.
“He has unfortunately misrepresented himself as working at CSER on various media (unclear if deliberate or not).” No, I haven’t, Sean, and you know this from our personal exchanges. I forgot to change the CSER affiliation on FB—and only FB—for a few months after leaving. As soon as you pointed it out, I changed it immediately. Your intellectual dishonesty here is really upsetting.
I don’t know how to embed snapshots, but anyone who wishes is welcome to type “phil torres” into linkedin or email me for the snapshots I’ve just taken right now—it brings up “Researcher at Centre for the Study of Existential Risk, University of Cambridge”. As I say, it’s unclear if this is deliberate—it may well be an oversight, but it has contributed to the mistaken external impression that Phil Torres is or was research staff at CSER.
That I didn’t know about, Sean, nor did you mention it. If you look at my profile, it hasn’t been updated in years. (It says that I still write for Motherboard and live in Carrboro, which haven’t been the case for years.)
You repeatedly lied if your comments above. Unprofessional. I don’t know how you can keep your job while lying about a colleague like that. I will delete the LinkedIn profile immediately. I honestly didn’t even remember that I had it. Had you mentioned it earlier, of course I would have
Your malicious behavior here is unacceptable. I have been nothing but willing to apologize, concede points, reconsider ideas, and change my views in response to you. When you’ve been rude and hurtful to me, and I’ve asked for an apology, you’ve refused.
[Apologies for getting mad. But the truth is, being lied about is upsetting, and as a human being, it would be odd if I weren’t hurt.]
Thank you.
Haydn, Michael Plant, etc. etc. I am happy to release screenshots of everything to show that Sean is lying. Over and over again, above, he lies. Here is proof of his lie about about me “misrepresenting [myself] as working at CSER on various media (unclear if deliberate or not).” I absolutely did no such thing! The only medium this was an issue on was FB, and I corrected it immediately (although there was some delay, for reasons I don’t understand) with an explicit apology (because, I say in the screenshot from 2019, I genuinely, honestly didn’t realize that it still says “works at”). Indeed, throughout our exchanges, I am repeatedly open and receptive to criticisms, constantly hedging, frequently apologizing, while Sean is, well, not exactly the interlocutor I’d hoped. Ask me about any of his silly, hurtful accusations above and I’ll address them with verifiable evidence. What is wrong with this community? https://c8df8822-f112-4676-8332-ad89713358e3.filesusr.com/ugd/d9aaad_d37202b3a9014315ba15d1220421d682.pdf (Check timestamps, please. I think one screenshot is out of order—apologies for that.)
How can someone lie this much about a colleague and still have a job?