Something I didn’t say in my big comment above: I’m really happy the people in this thread are approaching this with the goal of “still staying intellectually honest with” ourselves. I think there’s a lot of seductive but misleading thinking in this space, and that there’s a strong urge to latch onto the first framing we find that makes us feel better in the face of these issues. I’m happy to see people approach this problem in the same truth-first mindset they apply to doing good in the world.
On this point...there are a few arguments made in other comments here that I don’t find very persuasive, but am avoiding arguing against for fear of seeming disagreeable or causing distress to people with fragile self-worth. What are people’s thoughts about norms around arguing in these kinds of situations – or even raising the question in the first place?
EDIT: From my side, if there’s an argument that I’m making that someone think is shaky, I’d rather they told me so – privately or publicly, as they prefer.
I think we can assume that people on this forum seek truth and personal growth. Of course, this is challenging for all of us from time to time.
I think having a norm of speaking truthfully and not withholding information is important for community health. Each one of us has to assume the responsibility of knowing our own boundaries and pushing them within reasonable bounds, as few others can be expected to know ourselves well enough. Combined with the fact that in this case people have consciously decided to *opt in* to the discussion by posting a comment, I would think it overly cautious to refrain from replying.
There surely are edge cases that are more precarious and deserve tailored thought but I think this isn’t one.
If you know somebody well enough to think they are pushing their boundaries in unsustainable ways, I would reach out to them and mention exactly that thought in a personal message. Add some advice on how to engage with the community and its norms sustainably, link to posts like this showing that we all struggle with similar problems, and then people can also work through possible problems regarding “not feeling good enough”.
Personally, I’d rather be forced to live in reality than be protected because people worry I might not be able to come to grips with it. One important reason for which I like the EA community is that it feels like we all have consented to hearing the truth, even if it might be uncomfortable and imply labour.
I can obviously only speak for myself, but for me just having this kind of conversation is in itself very comforting since it shows that there are more people who think about this (i.e. it’s not just “me being stupid”). Disagreement doesn’t seem threatening as long as the tone is respectful and kind. In a way, I think it rather becomes easier to treat my own thoughts more lightly when I see that there are many different ways that people think about it.
It happens in philosophy sometimes too: “Saving your wife over 10 strangers is morally required because...” Can’t we just say that we aren’t moral angels? It’s not hypocritical to say the best thing is to do is save the 10 strangers, and then not do it (unless you also claim to be morally perfect). Same thing here. You can treat yourself well even if it’s not the best moral thing to do. You can value non-moral things.
This feels...not wrong, exactly, but also not what I was driving at with this comment. At least, I think I probably disagree with your conception of morality.
Something I didn’t say in my big comment above: I’m really happy the people in this thread are approaching this with the goal of “still staying intellectually honest with” ourselves. I think there’s a lot of seductive but misleading thinking in this space, and that there’s a strong urge to latch onto the first framing we find that makes us feel better in the face of these issues. I’m happy to see people approach this problem in the same truth-first mindset they apply to doing good in the world.
On this point...there are a few arguments made in other comments here that I don’t find very persuasive, but am avoiding arguing against for fear of seeming disagreeable or causing distress to people with fragile self-worth. What are people’s thoughts about norms around arguing in these kinds of situations – or even raising the question in the first place?
EDIT: From my side, if there’s an argument that I’m making that someone think is shaky, I’d rather they told me so – privately or publicly, as they prefer.
I think we can assume that people on this forum seek truth and personal growth. Of course, this is challenging for all of us from time to time.
I think having a norm of speaking truthfully and not withholding information is important for community health. Each one of us has to assume the responsibility of knowing our own boundaries and pushing them within reasonable bounds, as few others can be expected to know ourselves well enough. Combined with the fact that in this case people have consciously decided to *opt in* to the discussion by posting a comment, I would think it overly cautious to refrain from replying.
There surely are edge cases that are more precarious and deserve tailored thought but I think this isn’t one.
If you know somebody well enough to think they are pushing their boundaries in unsustainable ways, I would reach out to them and mention exactly that thought in a personal message. Add some advice on how to engage with the community and its norms sustainably, link to posts like this showing that we all struggle with similar problems, and then people can also work through possible problems regarding “not feeling good enough”.
Personally, I’d rather be forced to live in reality than be protected because people worry I might not be able to come to grips with it. One important reason for which I like the EA community is that it feels like we all have consented to hearing the truth, even if it might be uncomfortable and imply labour.
I can obviously only speak for myself, but for me just having this kind of conversation is in itself very comforting since it shows that there are more people who think about this (i.e. it’s not just “me being stupid”). Disagreement doesn’t seem threatening as long as the tone is respectful and kind. In a way, I think it rather becomes easier to treat my own thoughts more lightly when I see that there are many different ways that people think about it.
It happens in philosophy sometimes too: “Saving your wife over 10 strangers is morally required because...” Can’t we just say that we aren’t moral angels? It’s not hypocritical to say the best thing is to do is save the 10 strangers, and then not do it (unless you also claim to be morally perfect). Same thing here. You can treat yourself well even if it’s not the best moral thing to do. You can value non-moral things.
This feels...not wrong, exactly, but also not what I was driving at with this comment. At least, I think I probably disagree with your conception of morality.