I am a cognitive scientist who specialized in rationality under radical uncertainty.
For many years I worked full-time in effective altruism community building, communication, and outreach.
annaleptikon
Karma: 332
Because you will also select the people who will make the “consciously planned economy” from the population and can most optimistically assume normal distribution of these traits in people in power. It is, however, more likely that the less unselfish people will aspire to these positions and ultimately use them for their own ends, resulting in a redistribution of power to more selfish people. Centralized systems inherently offer more affordances of seizing power to selfish ends.
Reading the history of Mao, the Russian Revolution, and the Gulag Archipelago helps with some context.
Firstly, thank you in general for writing this up, this is an important piece of information and creates common knowledge and norms around how to behave related to the topic.
”You still control your own social circle—you don’t have to be friends with jerks just because they are EAs.”
Joining EA at a subjectively still young and starry-eyed age, I equated anyone associating with EA as “living up to the EA principles”. Now being older and more experienced, I see many younger people in EA making the same mistake. By now, I’m convinced that e.g. interest in ethics and actual ethical behavior and character correlate only very mildly. Similarly, there are many people in EA who are not particularly ethical either. Humans are still humans.
“utilitiarians should self-efface their utilitarianism” “Parfit suggests adopting whatever moral system seems to be most likely to produce the highest utility” “you may instead need to forget that you ever believed in utilitarianism”
This sounds plausible: you orient yourself towards the good and backpropagate over time how things play out and then learn through it which system and policies are reliable and truly produce good results (in the context and world you find yourself). This is also exactly what has played out in my own development, by orienting toward what produces good consequences and understanding how uncertain the world is (and how easily I fooled myself by saying I was doing the thing with the best consequences when I didn’t) I came out with virtue ethics myself.
”For a while, I have been thinking of writing a post with many similar themes and maybe I still will at some point.” I would read it with joy and endorse a full post being devoted to this topic (happy to read drafts and provide thoughts)
Focusmate has changed a lot since this post was published; maybe invite links are disabled by now.
Glad you enjoy it!
Thank you for reading and reviewing the book for the rest of us!
Disappointed to hear it is close minded in regards to the political framework it comes from.
I do think there are many valid arguments to be made to criticize EA on its own terms and hope this is what the book set out to do.
During EAG London 2021 @Emerson Spartz and I initiated a informal but successful “Complexity and EA” meetup.
@Michael Hinge wrote “Complexity Science, Economics and the Art of Zen” inspired by the meeting
We now have a Telegram Chat and Discord Server for people interested in the topic, please reach out if you want to get added. (Not posting the link to keep entry selective) (“ComplexitEA”)
Further resources we collected or found relevant:
Making Sense of Complexity (Introduction to Complexity) Comic by Sarah Firth
The Map of the Complexity Sciences by Brian Castellani
- Meditations on Moloch (Slate Star Codex)
Seeing like a State (Slate Star Codex)
Complexity Podcast (Michael Garfield)
Jim Rutt Show Podcast (Jim Rutt)
Thinking in Systems (Donella Meadows) (start here) -- Reading Group
Applied Complexity Science (Joe Norman)
Game B Movement (e.g. Daniel Schmachtenberger)
Nassim Taleb: Fooled by Randomness, Antifragile, Skin in the Game, Black Swan
The Systems Bible (John Gall)
Origin of Wealth (complexity economics)
Physics of Life (and his second book, Freedom and Evolution)
Why Greatness Cannot Be Planned (novelty search)
Scale (by Geoffrey West)
Order Without Design
Map of Cybernetics and Systems Science (Bob Horn)
Complexity Explorer Courses by SFI
Graphic design showing difference between systems thinking/change etc.
Principles of Systems Science George E. Mobus, Michael C. Kalton
More than ever as far as I can tell
People who like Logan’s post on EA burnout will love Tyler Alterman’s post on Effective altruism in the garden of ends. Both are close to my own experience.
Hey Jay,
Over the years, I have talked to many very successful and productive people, and most do, in fact, not work more than 20 productive hours per week. If you have a job with meetings and low-effort tasks in between, it’s easy to get to 40 hours plus. Every independent worker who measures hours of real mental effort is more in the 4-5 hours per day range. People who say otherwise tend to lie and change their numbers if you pressure them to get into the detail of what “counts as work” to them. It’s a marathon, and if you get into that range every day, you’ll do well.
Thank you for putting this together!
Recommend the book “Sometimes Brilliant” about Larry Brilliant’s life in this context! I read it with so much joy this year.
As mentioned in the article Effective Altruism as “nish kam karma yoga” [Larry Brilliant]
It’s already been removed from the final selection for various other reasons. Mostly redundancy of the values promoted, which are already covered in other works that will be on the list!
Thank you! And yes, excellent points.
Haven’t personally read Deutsch yet, does he reflect evolutionary thought well?
Both the systems books on the list (explicitly) and Taleb’s book (implicitly) describe a lot of the evolutionary process notion. Are there major points lacking?
Thank you! Added Lean Startup on the current list and removed the two books.
My personal stance on books is that it is to be expected that everyone has their strong points and their epistemic low points, Joy’s book was very important to my own understanding and I personally easily felt like I could ignore the minor faults in relation to the main argumentation. Different readers have different preferences regarding the distribution of knowledge and error in a book, I’d personally be okay with this.
In consulting this is also referred to as the “Minto pyramid” or “pyramid principle of communication”: you put the key message and main insight concisely as the first step.
In a fast-paced environment, this means the one piece with the highest information density is ensured to be delivered before e.g. getting interrupted. It also enables the listener to decide whether this topic is relevant early on in the communication and therefore shows respect for their attention.
After delivering the key message you can elaborate on the underlying insights or what brought you to the conclusion. If further elaboration is necessary or there is time for it the receiver of the message can ask further questions.
Here is an image to visualize the principle. The related book is called: “The Pyramid Principle: Logic in Writing and Thinking” by Barbara Minto.
Thank you to the many of you who have filled out the Google form as an alternative to writing a comment!
Here are some great points made:the current average is at EA as a knowledge space being 75% principles/values and only 25% concrete knowledge
Introduction:
What We Owe The Future is heavily upvoted by those who already read it
Removing Factfulness from top line of books as there have been substantial critiques of New Optimism “people on both sides of the ‘is the world getting better’ debate can try to make the world better.”
HPMOR should not be included in the introductory section “it teaches a certain mindset that fits inside Effective Altruism, but fails to introduce many important parts of the community”, the style does not fit the values of a serious movement (person likes it a lot, though)
Ethics:
maybe replace ‘The Moral Landscape’ by Sam Harris with ‘Think’ by Simon Blackburn
Moral Tribes is extremely digestible for a philosophy book, much more so than Practical Ethics
Current ethics list is unfocused: “Parfit is an important ethicist and reasons and persons is important. But he isn’t really more EA than many other ethicists. On Liberty is not really that EA-relevant. Utilitarianism is good. I like Hedonic Imperative but Pearce’s writing style is a turn-off for many, I think. I’d strongly prefer collections of papers/articles than a list of full books. Reading full books is just a terrible strategy for getting a handle on important issues in ethics. If it has to be books, than I would use books that are collections of papers. Particularly: (1) The Oxford Handbook of Population Ethics. And (2) Greaves & Pummer’s Effective Altruism: Philosophical Issues. (But I think you could do even better than these collections if you handpicked papers.) To these I would add (3) Mill’s Utilitarianism (4) Singer’s Expanding Circle. Strongly prefer a small list. Apologies that these thoughts are dashed off and unorganized.”
Rationality:
redundant information, strongly prefer culling all but maybe one or two.
The Scout Mindset was fantastic, and of all the EA books I’ve read, it’s probably the one I’m most inclined to recommend to pretty much everyone I know.
Once again, I just think it’s a bad idea to include all these books that are only tangentially related to EA, but are part of niche subcultures with their own worldviews. We’re not going to get a diverse community with fresh ideas if we filter for people who have a similar culture to current EAs.
https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/handbook-rationality this collection (The Handbook of Rationality) is a more information-dense path to learning this stuff I think. There are likely equally good subs
Economics:
Add Nudge and Make It Stick
Freakonomics is not important to read. It’s just some fun cases of applied economics. It’s not an efficient learning tool and it isn’t focused on important issues. It is entertaining. I don’t think microeconomics is important because it helps with entrepreneurial decisions; these should maybe be considered separately. Quantitative economics is at least as important as micro. Prefer a culled list. Possibly culled to zero.
Black Swan contains some helpful stuff, but it is off-puttingly polemical and not focused on extinction risks. Would make sense in a very large library maybe.
Can’t really see a justification for including Anarchy, State, and Utopia. I think this list is too long. I don’t think EA has a unified or consistent political ideology for short-term nation-states; I think this is a good thing and don’t want a list that implies that EA does have one.
Add Radical Markets by Posner and Weyl and Nudge
AI:
The Alignment Problem, while I would say is overall good, does jump around quite a bit narratively. I would want to read other books in this category before recommending it too strongly.
“Artificial Intelligence: A Modern Approach” is the only book I’m familiar with on the list that I dislike. The vast majority of people need something more accessible.
Animal Liberation was a great “why” book, The End of Animal Farming was a great “how” book. They serve different purposes. Overall, I found Animal Liberation more compelling than The End of Animal Farming, though it is quite a bit denser.
Community and Soft Skill:
How to Make Friends and Influence People
Happiness:
Daniel Haybron’s work on happiness is the best I’ve come across by far: Happiness and Well-Being: Integrating Research Across the Disciplines; The Pursuit of Unhappiness: The Elusive Psychology of Well-Being (Oxford University Press, 2008); Happiness: A Very Short Introduction (Oxford University Press, 2013).
Transhumanism:
Haven’t read ending aging but this seems like a preoccupation of the rationalist community that makes little sense by EA-lights? I’d prefer to get rid of this category.
Other
Would be surprised if anything beyond what’s included in the main EA recommendations is helpful here. Cull!
Biographies of changemakers seem like not particularly important reads?
Are there categories missing?
BioSecurity/Global Catastrophic Biological risks
I think you did an extremely thorough job. Well done!
Connections to other philosophies that value EA principles; ask e.g. Buddhist, Christian, and Jewish EA groups for recommendations
Should a category be removed?
I think people will assume the importance of an issue is proportional to the number of books included in it on the diagram. As a result, I would remove all object-level categories save the most important, and I would cull within them dramatically. I also think presenting object-level books seems like an endorsement, when mostly they are probably intended as jumping-off points for future thinking.
In general, I view MBA-style business strategy books as a negative signal. Of the philosophy books, Parfit is the only positive signal for me. The others mostly scan as popular philosophy.
I get a negative impression of people who are really into rationalist books and not much else—convinced of their own superiority, narrow-minded unless the idea is from a trusted rationalist guy, etc.
anything important missing?
Strangers Drowning, by Larissa MacFarquhar
Which books if understood by others would make you more confident in collaborating with them?
The Scout Mindset, Human Compatible, The Scout Mindset, anything introductory, Waking Up
I agree with your points made and I tried to explicitly address similar arguments in the original post!
The poster is meant to exactly distill the “canon” or “current orthodoxy” by aggregating what people currently and historically so far found most important to read. It is explicitly meant to distill this to quickly get a meta-knowledge of what that entails for various reasons: getting a quick introduction to precisely this meta-knowledge and the content but also to have a representation on which to build, precisely that, namely one’s criticism of what is missing e.g. how about making a “10 knowledge spheres and their books, from which EA could gain a lot from” as a co-creational poster answer. Then more people could read in those directions and the next poster in a couple of years could entail exactly more of the new books many found crucial. The post also explicitly addresses that it is not meant to encourage anyone to read all of them.
This project is not centralized at all btw. I’m one member of the community making a draft to ask other community members what they think about it. It’s an open conversation.
By having such a representation you can also more quickly understand which book is actually a “venturing out” into new territory versus just one’s lack of knowledge of how central it already is in the community. I have seen that many times that someone would read a book and feel like they found something completely new and important, while I already knew that many have read and thought through exactly the same literature already.
Think “introductory textbook” into a field as an analogy. It’s difficult to make an argument that they shouldn’t exist because they don’t already in-depth contain all the other options and criticisms of the stances. The metaphor often used for this problem is that of Wittgenstein’s ladder: “My propositions serve as elucidations in the following way: anyone who understands me eventually recognizes them as nonsensical, when he has used them—as steps—to climb beyond them. (He must, so to speak, throw away the ladder after he has climbed up it.) He must transcend these propositions, and then he will see the world aright.”
With my current research together with John Vervaeke and Johannes Jaeger, I’m continuing the work on the cognitive science of rationality under uncertainty, bringing together the axiomatic approach (on which Stanovich et al. build) and the ecological approach.
Here I talk about Rationality and Cognitive Science on the ClearerThinking Podcast. Here is a YouTube conversation between me and John, explaining our work and the “The paradigm shift in rationality”. Here is the preprint of the same argumentation as “Rationality and Relevance Realization”. John also mentions our research multiple times on the Jim Rutt Show.
I’ve always admired your writings on the topic and you were one of the voices that led me to my current path.
We all pay for a government to ensure internal safety in general, from which everyone benefits. Everyone benefits from general safety and having these conditions to determine in a non-violent way who succeeds and who doesn’t.
And being wealthy is a good thing! “The wealthy” should never be the enemy. Many wealthy people have contributed so much value to their society that rational people would vote on how much to pay them for their contribution; their current wealth is precisely what they should get, given what they contributed.
The only problematic wealth is the one that was achieved by unlawful means (in which you don’t need redistribution but law enforcement and taking back money that wasn’t acquired in a way anyone would agree with!).
And who should be thought as the outgroup are rent-seekers independent of their current wealth.
https://preview.redd.it/miemgnhsvut71.jpg?auto=webp&s=f1588d524f52635e41ce99110bb71bdb94d02a1e