Friend of animals :D
Yellow (Daryl)
Karma: 288
Thanks for the updated thoughts on this topic.
If I may be so bold, I cannot help but mention the observation that PISE is one letter away from the word “PISS”. And I wonder if this may have had some sort of impact(in addition to being slightly humors). I am curious to know if this is just me or there are other observers of this.
That’s very altruistic of them! (Uncertain about the effectiveness of choosing elephants conservation though)
Here’s a short list of cooperate altruism(varying in effectiveness) https://www.buyforward.org/
Based and Pogger pilled owo
Great post on this topic. I used to think about where obligations come from. ~~I came to no satisfying conclusion—the is-ought gap is a real killer xD
For me my motivation used to come from identifying as a utilitarian, until I read the replacing guilt ea sequence https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/s/a2LBRPLhvwB83DSGq/p/Syz3Fiqn5rBqhePiz. It really made me to a 180 on things like “I should donate to charity” and “I should be vegan” to “I want to see the world a better place, these actions help make that true, thus I want to do them”(which I think is personally much healthier for me).
I think your point 3⁄4 is a “big IF true” sort of thing, but reminds me of a “pascals wager” argument for the points that depend on it.
I know one organization: Agricultural Fairness Alliance(past ACE grantee) (edit: oh the image you have is from them! xD)
Also maybe Sam Bankman’s support of Joe Biden works somewhat like this? Joe Biden gives some many billions less in subsidies than counterfactual Trump(altho still too much xd)
I like the acronym, YEA things :3
Thanks for the write up.
To add some more suggestions to how generalist resilience may come about, check this out by 80k: https://80000hours.org/problem-profiles/
I’m currently unsure of what to think about your claim that generalist resilience needs to be upscaled by that large factor. This is mainly due to being unsure about what proportion of efforts is currently being directed there. Do you know anything about the distribution of efforts already at generalist resilience?
Great post thanks so much!! I really appreciate the concern for animals and learned a few things about some supplements I may want to consider taking while on a plant based diet(been forgetting to take my b12 and eat cruciferous veggies owa)
On your recommendation for Choline though, it’s an essential nutrient, but I think consuming too much of it can be harmful for health: https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/choline/“Our gut bacteria can turn choline into the toxic byproduct and cardiotoxicant TMAO—trimethylamine oxide—which is then absorbed back into our system within only an hour of consumption. The more eggs we eat, the higher the choline and TMAO levels we have, and the higher the risk we may have for heart disease and other diseases. Choline, as well as carnitine in red meat, can be turned into TMAO, which is associated with inflammation and a significantly higher risk of heart disease, heart attack, stroke, or death within a three-year period.”
Thanks for posting! I think it’s great to think about ways to use the large differences in suffering per calorie depending on what species is being farmed to our advantage to increase animal welfare.
Non-EAs are receptive to a proposal to substitute bivalves for other meat. They are not receptive to proposals to go vegetarian/vegan.
This is a better source about it being difficult to influence dietary change https://rethinkpriorities.org/publications/effectiveness-of-a-theory-informed-documentary-to-reduce-consumption-of-meat-and-animal-products (via method of documentaries)
The greater tractability of dietary change to increase bivalve consumption(reducing other animal consumption) is likely the strongest point in support of bivalve farming. I think(85%) that influencing people to substitute for bivalve consumption will be quite similar in difficulty to influencing people to go more veg*n. Some people who identify as vegan also consume bivalves anyways so this may not be an either/or though. Nudging people away from the worst in suffering per calorie is always better so it.
On price I don’t think(65%) scallops(which you compared) are the cheapest of the bivalves? May be better options!
Depending on what it substitutes for, it would also reduce crop farming and associated rodent/insect deaths
This is an interesting point! Animals require a lotta farmland for food. I’m not sure there’s any strong agreement though that reducing amount of crop farmland is good for animal welfare compared to counterfactual re-wilded land, or the counterfactual how the wild animals in the farmland would have died anyways.
can clean up polluted water.
xD Be careful with this point there seems to be a tradeoff between cleaning polluted water and health, from that article:
As they filter water, the bivalves’ tissues absorb some of the chemicals and pathogens that are present—things like herbicides, pharmaceuticals and flame retardants
Thanks for posting! I especially like the part you mentioned on how it’s possible to slip into a mindset of justification/motivated reasoning of past actions as being cost effective for happiness for productivity! Daniel Kirmani made a comment here more in depth about it that makes me think about the book The Elephant In The Brain that expands on this idea in depth(you may have already heard of it).
I think the majority of people who interact here aren’t strictly just existing to be of service people!
Well I can best speak for myself, I mainly enjoy EA to the extent that I have some % of me or some desire to do some good. I enjoy that EA helps me do good better(even in maybe only certain areas ex. animals).Your free to choose for yourself to help others if that’s what you(or a % of your multiple desires) wants to do! If there is some desire to help others, let’s figure out how to help them more effectively!
I think they mean buy from sweatshop compared to counterfactual fair trade place. Not sure if they mean donating the difference in money saved as well.
Incorrect registration form? Says ‘at capacity for July’s dinner’, but this is for August.
Thanks, heads up your second link is broken
I think the post is spot on with the sentiment that a value many EA’s hold is that each person, no matter the nation they belong to, is equal.
However I would like to provide some doubt as to whether cosmopolitanism is the best way to organize the world.
Just as how a corporation controlling 100% of a market may not be the best thing, a single government controlling 100% of the world may also have some downsides(ex. innovation). I might be wrong, and most of my thinking on this is just coming from this: https://www.econtalk.org/yoram-hazony-on-the-virtue-of-nationalism/
The topic might need some pro-con weighting.
EA forum suggestion: In-line comments(Similar to google docs commenting)
If neartermism is within 30 years maybe
And longtermism is greater than 100,000,000,000,000,000 years,
What is the middle position? 50,000,000,000,000,015 years?
^this may not be the correct way to frame it, but also Will talks about how most positions lead to one of the extremes and it’s hard to find a middle place during their more recent 80k ep https://80000hours.org/podcast/episodes/will-macaskill-what-we-owe-the-future/
That’s definitely a con that will cost many QALY’s. But so does the risk in cosmopolitanism; the lack of incentive for government innovation to attract citizens which also costs many QALY’s.
I do want to say that I’m not saying cosmopolitanism isn’t the best option, but rather think some more doubt and careful running of the numbers of QALY’s may be necessary to increase confidence in that option.
Also Your totally right that it’s impractical often to tell the person in a bad nation to just leave their nation & they did not choose their country.
It’s quite similar to a person working in a sweatshop. They did not choose to be born where that’s one of their opportunities, but they often say themself that they prefer the factory job best compared to selling various small items, or farmwork.
Maybe take a look at this! https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/tag/job-profile