So I have time for some of the arguments made here, but I worry that I could be frog-in-a-pot-boiled into accepting anything. It feels like there should be some things that one should say that are worthy of cancellation or very high costs.
Eg when Hanania tweets, without apology: “Daniel Penny getting charged. These people are animals, whether they’re harassing people in subways or walking around in suits.”
I really like our taboo around racism. That people just don’t say things like that. And so it feels to me likely that breaking the taboo should be $10,000 - $1,000,000 expensive.
I don’t like many orange lines, I like a few very clear red ones. Don’t insult people with reference to their sex, sexuality or race. Don’t dehumanise people or groups of people. If Hanania had just not said a few things he has said, I wouldn’t have much problem, but he doesn’t just tiptoe up to my red lines, he steps over them.
And at that point I feel obliged to kick up a stink, otherwise we really do end up in the world where Manifest is full of edgy racists, who actually do think that some races are morally worse and should be deported or whatever. And that’s a conference I don’t really want to go to.
This is my sort of steelman of my procancellation position. i don’t think it applies to almost anyone but Hanania and there is a way back even for him, but I think if it doesn’t apply here, I’m not sure I would actually hold the view, which I do.
More than that, I am conscious that many who most eagerly pursue the taboo, including the writers of the Guardian article and people like David Gerard who provided background for it openly despise you, me, and others in these spheres, and given taboo-crafting power would craft a set of norms emphatically disagreeable to me. I think parts of the EA community have themselves shown some susceptibility to similar impulses, throwing people like Nick Bostrom under the bus to do so. That post in particular actively made me more wary of EA spaces and left me wondering who else would be skewered.
The individual who wrote that post no longer works at CEA but openly demands that EA cut ties with the entire rationalist community. I like you and broadly trust your own instincts here, even where we might disagree about where to draw specific lines, but I am extremely wary of yielding norm-setting power to people who treat my approach (engaging seriously with anyone) as worthy of suspicion and condemnation, and I think when they succeed in setting the frame, it works against a lot of the rationalist and rationalist-adjacent community norms I value.
Oh yeah, no I agree with that. I have lost at least one EA friend partly because I wasn’t willing enough to condemn Hanania (despite saying that he said racist stuff and I didn’t want him to speak and pushing for discussion that lead to him being removed as a speaker). People pretty get annoyed at me for what I consider to be milquetoast takes or for trying to reach consensus on difficult discussion[1], I have received an angry screed for criticism of an EA leader. I don’t think EA is particularly safe for me[2]. My instincts here aren’t that this is good.
But I claim that there are lines that shouldn’t be crossed and if that empowers people I don’t like, in the short term, so be it. It’s what I think.
I think there is a line that Hanania can cross and (until he uncrosses it, with some cost) I will push for large costs to be imposed on him. For me, he has crossed that line and I am pretty confused how much value he should create before I say it’s more than the harm but I don’t think he’s done enough so far.
Though this is part of the issue, we’re all scared and so fragile. I imagine that some minority EAs feels this way. I talked and read things from some around the bostrom stuff that felt this way.
Do you really like our taboo around racism, or do you like our socially-popular taboo around a narrowly-defined subset of racism (likewise, sex, sexuality, and other class traits)?
I’m no fan of Hanania but I think most people make these broad statements about taboos that they don’t really mean in practice. For certain cultural reasons, those come up less here than the Hanania type despite being right at the “cultural borders,” which could be an interesting anthropological study of its own.
So I have time for some of the arguments made here, but I worry that I could be frog-in-a-pot-boiled into accepting anything. It feels like there should be some things that one should say that are worthy of cancellation or very high costs.
Eg when Hanania tweets, without apology: “Daniel Penny getting charged. These people are animals, whether they’re harassing people in subways or walking around in suits.”
I really like our taboo around racism. That people just don’t say things like that. And so it feels to me likely that breaking the taboo should be $10,000 - $1,000,000 expensive.
I don’t like many orange lines, I like a few very clear red ones. Don’t insult people with reference to their sex, sexuality or race. Don’t dehumanise people or groups of people. If Hanania had just not said a few things he has said, I wouldn’t have much problem, but he doesn’t just tiptoe up to my red lines, he steps over them.
And at that point I feel obliged to kick up a stink, otherwise we really do end up in the world where Manifest is full of edgy racists, who actually do think that some races are morally worse and should be deported or whatever. And that’s a conference I don’t really want to go to.
This is my sort of steelman of my procancellation position. i don’t think it applies to almost anyone but Hanania and there is a way back even for him, but I think if it doesn’t apply here, I’m not sure I would actually hold the view, which I do.
I respect that and agree that those comments cross a line that should not be crossed. I’m sympathetic to the value of red lines and taboos, and I regularly put active effort into defending the sentiment that racism is bad and should be condemned (though I am extremely cautious about tabooing people as a whole based on specific bad sentiments).
It’s more complicated for me here because as mentioned above, I find Hanania’s commentary on other topics unusually valuable and think I have had valuable, worthwhile interactions with him such that I am glad for opportunities to do so.
More than that, I am conscious that many who most eagerly pursue the taboo, including the writers of the Guardian article and people like David Gerard who provided background for it openly despise you, me, and others in these spheres, and given taboo-crafting power would craft a set of norms emphatically disagreeable to me. I think parts of the EA community have themselves shown some susceptibility to similar impulses, throwing people like Nick Bostrom under the bus to do so. That post in particular actively made me more wary of EA spaces and left me wondering who else would be skewered.
The individual who wrote that post no longer works at CEA but openly demands that EA cut ties with the entire rationalist community. I like you and broadly trust your own instincts here, even where we might disagree about where to draw specific lines, but I am extremely wary of yielding norm-setting power to people who treat my approach (engaging seriously with anyone) as worthy of suspicion and condemnation, and I think when they succeed in setting the frame, it works against a lot of the rationalist and rationalist-adjacent community norms I value.
Oh yeah, no I agree with that. I have lost at least one EA friend partly because I wasn’t willing enough to condemn Hanania (despite saying that he said racist stuff and I didn’t want him to speak and pushing for discussion that lead to him being removed as a speaker). People pretty get annoyed at me for what I consider to be milquetoast takes or for trying to reach consensus on difficult discussion[1], I have received an angry screed for criticism of an EA leader. I don’t think EA is particularly safe for me[2]. My instincts here aren’t that this is good.
But I claim that there are lines that shouldn’t be crossed and if that empowers people I don’t like, in the short term, so be it. It’s what I think.
I think there is a line that Hanania can cross and (until he uncrosses it, with some cost) I will push for large costs to be imposed on him. For me, he has crossed that line and I am pretty confused how much value he should create before I say it’s more than the harm but I don’t think he’s done enough so far.
I imagine they would characterise it differently.
Though this is part of the issue, we’re all scared and so fragile. I imagine that some minority EAs feels this way. I talked and read things from some around the bostrom stuff that felt this way.
Do you really like our taboo around racism, or do you like our socially-popular taboo around a narrowly-defined subset of racism (likewise, sex, sexuality, and other class traits)?
I’m no fan of Hanania but I think most people make these broad statements about taboos that they don’t really mean in practice. For certain cultural reasons, those come up less here than the Hanania type despite being right at the “cultural borders,” which could be an interesting anthropological study of its own.