I continue to think that a community this large needs mediation functions to avoid lots of harm with each subsequent scandal.
People asked for more details. so I wrote the below.
Let’s look at some recent scandals and I’ll try and point out some different groups that existed.
FTX—longtermists and non-lontermists, those with greater risk tolerance and less
Bostrom—rationalists and progressives
Owen Cotton-Barrett—looser norms vs more robust, weird vs normie
Nonlinear—loyalty vs kindness, consent vs duty of care
In each case, the community disagrees on who we should be and what we should be. People write comments to signal that they are good and want good things and shouldn’t be attacked. Other people see these and feel scared that they aren’t what the community wants.
This is tiring and anxiety inducing for all parties. In all cases here there are well intentioned, hard working people who have given a lot to try and make the world better who are scared they cannot trust their community to support them if push comes to shove. There are people horrified at the behaviour of others, scared that this behaviour will repeat itself, with all the costs attached. I feel this way, and I don’t think I am alone.
I think we need the community equivalent of therapy and mediation. We have now got to the stage where national media articles get written about our scandals and people threaten litigation. I just don’t think that a community of 3000 apes can survive this without serious psychological costs which in turn affect work and our lives. We all don’t want to be chucked out of a community which is safety and food and community for us. We all don’t want that community to become a hellhole. I don’t, SBF doesn’t, the woman hurt by OCB doesn’t, Kat and Emerson and Chloe and Alice don’t.
That’s not to say that all behaviour is equal, but that I think the frame here is empathy, boundary setting and safety, not conflict, auto-immune responses and exile.
What do I suggest?
After each scandal we have spaces to talk about our feelings, then we discuss what we think the norms of the community should be. Initially there will be disagreement but in time as we listen to those we disagree with we may realise how we differ. Then we can try and reintegrate this understanding to avoid it happening again. That’s what trust is—the confidence that something won’t happen above tolerance.
A concrete example
After the Bostrom stuff we had rationalist and progressive EAs in disagreement. Some thought he’d responded well, others badly. I think there was room for a discussion, to hear how unsafe his behaviour had left people feeling “do people judge my competence based on the colour of my skin?” “will my friends be safe here?”. I don’t think these feelings can be dismissed as wokery gone mad. But I think the other group had worries too “Will I be judged for things I said years ago?” “Seemingly even an apology isn’t enough”. I find I can empathise with both groups.
And I suggest what we want is some norms around this. Norms about things we do and don’t do. The aim should be to reduce community stress through there being bright lines and costs for behaviour we deem bad. And ways for those who do unacceptable things to come back to the community. I think there could be mutually agreeable ones, but I think the process would be tough.
We’d have to wrestle with how Bostrom and Hanson’s productivity seems related to their ability to think weird or ugly thoughts. We’d have to think about if mailing lists 20 years ago were public or private. We’d have to think about what value we put on safety. And we’d have to be willing not to pick up the sword if it didn’t go our way.
But I think there are acceptable positions here. Where people acknowledge harmful patterns of behaviour, perhaps even voluntarily leave for a time. Where people talk about the harm and the benefit created by those they disagree with. Where others see that some value weirdness/creativity more/less than they do. Where we rejoice in what we have achieved and mourn over how we have hurt one another. Where we grow to be a kinder, more mature community.
Intermission
This stuff breaks my heart. Not because I am good, but because I have predictably hurt people and been hurt by people in the past. And I’d like the cycle to stop. In my own life, conflict has never been the way out of this. Either I should leave people I cannot work with, or share and listen to those I can. And it is so hard and I fail often, but it’s better than becoming jaded and cruel or self-hating and perfectionist. I am broken, I am enough, I can be better. EA is flawed, EA is good, EA can improve. The world is awful, the world is better that it used to be, the world can improve.
As it is
Currently, I think we aren’t doing this work, so every subsequent scandal adds another grievance to the pile. And I guess people are leaving the community. If we spend millions a year trying to get graduates, isn’t it worth spending the same to keep long time members? I don’t know if there is a way to keep Kat and Emerson, Alice and Chloe, the concerned global healthy worker and the person who thinks SBF did nothing wrong, and me and you, but currently I don’t see us spending nearly the appropriate amount of mental effort or resources.
Oh and I’m really not angling to do this work. I have suggestions, sure, but I think the person should be widely trusted by the community as neutral and mature.
Community health is also like the legal system in that they enforce sanctions so I wonder if that reduces the chance that someone reaches out to them to mediate.
I continue to think that a community this large needs mediation functions to avoid lots of harm with each subsequent scandal.
People asked for more details. so I wrote the below.
Let’s look at some recent scandals and I’ll try and point out some different groups that existed.
FTX—longtermists and non-lontermists, those with greater risk tolerance and less
Bostrom—rationalists and progressives
Owen Cotton-Barrett—looser norms vs more robust, weird vs normie
Nonlinear—loyalty vs kindness, consent vs duty of care
In each case, the community disagrees on who we should be and what we should be. People write comments to signal that they are good and want good things and shouldn’t be attacked. Other people see these and feel scared that they aren’t what the community wants.
This is tiring and anxiety inducing for all parties. In all cases here there are well intentioned, hard working people who have given a lot to try and make the world better who are scared they cannot trust their community to support them if push comes to shove. There are people horrified at the behaviour of others, scared that this behaviour will repeat itself, with all the costs attached. I feel this way, and I don’t think I am alone.
I think we need the community equivalent of therapy and mediation. We have now got to the stage where national media articles get written about our scandals and people threaten litigation. I just don’t think that a community of 3000 apes can survive this without serious psychological costs which in turn affect work and our lives. We all don’t want to be chucked out of a community which is safety and food and community for us. We all don’t want that community to become a hellhole. I don’t, SBF doesn’t, the woman hurt by OCB doesn’t, Kat and Emerson and Chloe and Alice don’t.
That’s not to say that all behaviour is equal, but that I think the frame here is empathy, boundary setting and safety, not conflict, auto-immune responses and exile.
What do I suggest?
After each scandal we have spaces to talk about our feelings, then we discuss what we think the norms of the community should be. Initially there will be disagreement but in time as we listen to those we disagree with we may realise how we differ. Then we can try and reintegrate this understanding to avoid it happening again. That’s what trust is—the confidence that something won’t happen above tolerance.
A concrete example
After the Bostrom stuff we had rationalist and progressive EAs in disagreement. Some thought he’d responded well, others badly. I think there was room for a discussion, to hear how unsafe his behaviour had left people feeling “do people judge my competence based on the colour of my skin?” “will my friends be safe here?”. I don’t think these feelings can be dismissed as wokery gone mad. But I think the other group had worries too “Will I be judged for things I said years ago?” “Seemingly even an apology isn’t enough”. I find I can empathise with both groups.
And I suggest what we want is some norms around this. Norms about things we do and don’t do. The aim should be to reduce community stress through there being bright lines and costs for behaviour we deem bad. And ways for those who do unacceptable things to come back to the community. I think there could be mutually agreeable ones, but I think the process would be tough.
We’d have to wrestle with how Bostrom and Hanson’s productivity seems related to their ability to think weird or ugly thoughts. We’d have to think about if mailing lists 20 years ago were public or private. We’d have to think about what value we put on safety. And we’d have to be willing not to pick up the sword if it didn’t go our way.
But I think there are acceptable positions here. Where people acknowledge harmful patterns of behaviour, perhaps even voluntarily leave for a time. Where people talk about the harm and the benefit created by those they disagree with. Where others see that some value weirdness/creativity more/less than they do. Where we rejoice in what we have achieved and mourn over how we have hurt one another. Where we grow to be a kinder, more mature community.
Intermission
This stuff breaks my heart. Not because I am good, but because I have predictably hurt people and been hurt by people in the past. And I’d like the cycle to stop. In my own life, conflict has never been the way out of this. Either I should leave people I cannot work with, or share and listen to those I can. And it is so hard and I fail often, but it’s better than becoming jaded and cruel or self-hating and perfectionist. I am broken, I am enough, I can be better. EA is flawed, EA is good, EA can improve. The world is awful, the world is better that it used to be, the world can improve.
As it is
Currently, I think we aren’t doing this work, so every subsequent scandal adds another grievance to the pile. And I guess people are leaving the community. If we spend millions a year trying to get graduates, isn’t it worth spending the same to keep long time members? I don’t know if there is a way to keep Kat and Emerson, Alice and Chloe, the concerned global healthy worker and the person who thinks SBF did nothing wrong, and me and you, but currently I don’t see us spending nearly the appropriate amount of mental effort or resources.
Oh and I’m really not angling to do this work. I have suggestions, sure, but I think the person should be widely trusted by the community as neutral and mature.
I’d bid for you to explain more what you mean here—but it’s your quick take!
I’m very keen for more details as well.
The CEA community health team does serve as a mediation function sometimes, I think. Maybe that’s not enough, but it seems worth mentioning.
Community health is also like the legal system in that they enforce sanctions so I wonder if that reduces the chance that someone reaches out to them to mediate.
I think this is the wrong frame tbh
How so?
I think I want them to be a mediation and boundary setting org, not just legal system